There’s probably a lot of people, primarily student activists, who get angry just from reading the above headline. I’ll ask two things from those of you who fall into that category – First, hear me out. Second, understand that the following argument is not based in any hostility towards any group, but rather raw practicality. Also, as you will see, this argument applies to community bathrooms, not single stall bathrooms.

Pushing for gender neutral bathrooms is a new and increasingly popular form of campus activism. Left wing students across the country have been trying to eliminate the traditional “binary” divide between the genders in on-campus restrooms. For example, college students in California recently held a “Sh*t in” to campaign for, among other things, “adding ‘Gender Diversity’ signs to existing gendered bathrooms.”

Why are students doing this? Mostly out of a desire to be more inclusive, particularly to transgender individuals. But as this movement picks up steam, the demands for more and more bathrooms to drop their ‘gender segregation’ may prove problematic.

As a bit of background information, the true number of transgender individuals in the country is unknown. Estimates vary, and within those estimated percentages, there are differing levels of gender dysphoria between persons. Regardless of where the exact number lies, understand that it is a small percentage of the population, both at large, and at any specific school in the nation. What activists call “cisgender” is the overwhelming majority of any student body.

Therefore, on net, a shift to gender neutral bathrooms would only be a good move for a school to make if the collective benefit to those members of the population which feel more “included” (the minority) outweighs any potential downside to the “cisgender” community (the majority). Otherwise, on net, the movement will do more harm to society than good, whether they meant to do so or not.

Let’s break it down further – the emotional/psychological discomfort a transgender individual feels as a result of separate bathrooms can be terrible, but it is more than likely true that many “cisgender” students will feel discomfort from being forced to use the restroom with the opposite sex.

To be crass for a moment – students spend time naked or exposed in dorm bathrooms across America. Whether it be stalls, showers, or whatever else, there will be plenty of opportunity, intentionally or otherwise, for students’ privacy to be violated by the opposite sex in community bathrooms.

In addition, there are many dangerous scenarios that are real possibilities. One such scenario is passing out in the bathroom after a night of partying. This happens too frequently at colleges, given the high levels of drinking which occur on weekends, and sometimes even weekdays. As a simple example, ask yourself, if a female student passes out at 3 a.m. in a bathroom stall, would you prefer another female find her, or have it be a coin flip whether the next person coming through that door is a male or female? Personally, I would prefer another female student find her, as opposed to a potentially intoxicated male.

Herein lies the biggest danger with gender neutral bathrooms – a potential for more sexual assault, and certainly more sexual harassment.

True, what I’ve just described is a purely subjective judgement call, but the question you must ask yourself when considering this issue is whether the emotional, physiological, and even physical stress that could be put on “cisgender” individuals is collectively larger than the benefit in the same areas that transgender individuals will receive. It’s difficult to test, and likely impossible to quantify, but I present this argument to make it clear that simply opposing gender neutral bathrooms does not make you mean, “transphobic”, hateful, or whatever other character assassination may be thrown my way, and more importantly, thrown at students who are uncomfortable with this movement and are being labeled with insults in retaliation.

When it comes to public policy, everyone has to bear in mind that everything is a trade off. When you spend money on a new library, you make others worse off by taking more of their earnings through taxes. When you kill a terrorist, you may end up with civilian casualties. If you want more security at home, you may have to forfeit your civil liberties. In other words, whenever you make something better, you must make something else worse. The question is, which alternative outweighs the other in terms of harm and benefit. Public policy is about finding the right balance with every issue, and maximizing things through making the correct trade offs. Gender neutral bathrooms are no different.

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  • Dave Biddle

    I think we should stop buying into the misconception that the transgender bathroom issue is about “bathrooms”. It’s not about “bathrooms”. That’s trivial, superficial, and misleading.

    The first and foremost issue is whether or not it is moral and responsible for the American people to make a ruling to socialize the public obligation to accept a person’s delusions as reality. “Sex” is a biological reproductive role. You are born as a “male” or a “female” and such reproductive roles are biological facts regardless of feelings, lifestyle, or preference. Since “sex” is a FACT regarding a biological reproductive role, a person’s opinion to the contrary of a fact of reality is known as “delusion”. Society should not humor delusional people. Facts are not affected by feelings, lifestyle, or preference.

    The second issue is about how society should deal with the transgender bathroom issue.Probably all but the most incompetent impersonators of the opposite sex have been and will continue to get away with using the gender-specific bathroom of their choice without issue. What the public does not know will not affect them and there are certainly plenty of creepy people using sex-appropriate public facilities. I think that if a person is discovered using the incorrect gender-specific restroom, locker rooms, etc, they ought to be subject to the appropriate legal and social consequences such as, depending on the situation, being asked to leave that locker room, being charged with indecent exposure, invasion of privacy, etc. Society hasn’t in the past and, in my opinion, does not need to now or in the future, check birth certificates at every gender-specific facility. This issue has and will continue to work itself out.

    I think it is appropriate, responsible, and moral for society to have a standard – that “sex” is a biological reproductive role irrespective of opinion, preference, or lifestyle.

    So, as an official statement, I think that, for instance, a biological male who surgically mutilates his primary sex organs, chemically mutilates his body, and/or adopts the clothing, hairstyle, makeup, and mannerisms of the opposite sex does not get a social or legal right to choose the gender-specific facility of his choice – he loses his privilege to both. Functionally, he would use the gender-specific facility of his choice because no one would know otherwise! In this way, the standard is maintained and the opposite-sex-impersonator uses the gender-specific facility at his own legal and social consequences without forcing the public to delude themselves into thinking his mutilation someone redefines reality.

    Of course this would not satisfy the opposition because I believe that the transgender issue is about forcing the public to accept their delusions as reality and actually celebrate them, not about letting them use the bathroom. “Transgendered people” have been along for a long time, according to the LGBT community and there doesn’t appear to be any evidence of significant numbers of transgendered deaths due to bathroom deprivation. “Transgendered” people have been using the bathrooms for a long time and, wow, no one cared!

    Humoring the delusions of mentally and/or spiritually ill people does not help them – it hurts them. Those people need our help, love, and support. It is wrong to sacrifice them on the altar of political correctness and not only give them up to their confusions and delusions, but enforce those confusions and delusions.

  • Dave Biddle

    I think we should stop buying into the misconception that the transgender bathroom issue is about “bathrooms”. It’s not about “bathrooms”. That’s trivial, superficial, and misleading.

    The first and foremost issue is whether or not it is moral and responsible for the American people to make a ruling to socialize the public obligation to accept a person’s delusions as reality. “Sex” is a biological reproductive role. You are born as a “male” or a “female” and such reproductive roles are biological facts regardless of feelings, lifestyle, or preference. Since “sex” is a FACT regarding a biological reproductive role, a person’s opinion to the contrary of a fact of reality is known as “delusion”. Society should not humor delusional people. Facts are not affected by feelings, lifestyle, or preference.

    The second issue is about how society should deal with the transgender bathroom issue.Probably all but the most incompetent impersonators of the opposite sex have been and will continue to get away with using the gender-specific bathroom of their choice without issue. What the public does not know will not affect them and there are certainly plenty of creepy people using sex-appropriate public facilities. I think that if a person is discovered using the incorrect gender-specific restroom, locker rooms, etc, they ought to be subject to the appropriate legal and social consequences such as, depending on the situation, being asked to leave that locker room, being charged with indecent exposure, invasion of privacy, etc. Society hasn’t in the past and, in my opinion, does not need to now or in the future, check birth certificates at every gender-specific facility. This issue has and will continue to work itself out.

    I think it is appropriate, responsible, and moral for society to have a standard – that “sex” is a biological reproductive role irrespective of opinion, preference, or lifestyle.

    So, as an official statement, I think that, for instance, a biological male who surgically mutilates his primary sex organs, chemically mutilates his body, and/or adopts the clothing, hairstyle, makeup, and mannerisms of the opposite sex does not get a social or legal right to choose the gender-specific facility of his choice – he loses his privilege to both. Functionally, he would use the gender-specific facility of his choice because no one would know otherwise! In this way, the standard is maintained and the opposite-sex-impersonator uses the gender-specific facility at his own legal and social consequences without forcing the public to delude themselves into thinking his mutilation someone redefines reality.

    Of course this would not satisfy the opposition because I believe that the transgender issue is about forcing the public to accept their delusions as reality and actually celebrate them, not about letting them use the bathroom. “Transgendered people” have been along for a long time, according to the LGBT community and there doesn’t appear to be any evidence of significant numbers of transgendered deaths due to bathroom deprivation. “Transgendered” people have been using the bathrooms for a long time and, wow, no one cared!

    Humoring the delusions of mentally and/or spiritually ill people does not help them – it hurts them. Those people need our help, love, and support. It is wrong to sacrifice them on the altar of political correctness and not only give them up to their confusions and delusions, but enforce those confusions and delusions.

    • JTMB Videos

      Agreed. In my opinion it is an attempt to define men and women being the same, NO difference NADA zilch nothing different between men and women. It is a result of the feminist movement for equality. They have lost focus and are now pushing that there is no difference between the sexes. The same reason same sex couples insist it is marriage and not s civil union, marriage makes it identical to hetero marriage. the same institution so there must be no difference, the relationship between a woman and woman is not different than between a man and a woman. Of course there are many differences between men and woman and not just the biologically evident differences. being equal does not require that men and women are considered the same, how about “EQUAL, BUT, DIFFERENT” ? differences do NOT make you less or more than the other, just as difference in eye shape or skin color does not make you less or more

    • JTMB Videos

      Agreed. In my opinion it is an attempt to define men and women being the same, NO difference NADA zilch nothing different between men and women. It is a result of the feminist movement for equality. They have lost focus and are now pushing that there is no difference between the sexes. The same reason same sex couples insist it is marriage and not s civil union, marriage makes it identical to hetero marriage. the same institution so there must be no difference, the relationship between a woman and woman is not different than between a man and a woman. Of course there are many differences between men and woman and not just the biologically evident differences. being equal does not require that men and women are considered the same, how about “EQUAL, BUT, DIFFERENT” ? differences do NOT make you less or more than the other, just as difference in eye shape or skin color does not make you less or more

    • None

      Meet Danielle Muscato – he wants to be treated as a woman because he says so:

      https://twanzphobic.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/the-miracle-of-twanzition-the-before-and-after-photos/

    • None

      Meet Danielle Muscato – he wants to be treated as a woman because he says so:

      https://twanzphobic.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/the-miracle-of-twanzition-the-before-and-after-photos/

  • Jjb54

    From some friends that went to Europe to tour, the bathrooms were indeed open to all.

    Now the thing is that there are two types of bathrooms over there:
    .. Male/Female bathroom -> that only 1 person at a time can use and there is a lock on the door.
    .. Larger areas, but the stalls themselves are doors with no way to see who is in the stall. They are indeed able to be locked. The main Restroom / Lue / is open to both sexes and it is basically to wash hands, put on makeup and such. There are NO privacy issues at all.

    Basically over there you would have to work really hard to find a “non-secured” both sex bathroom with any chance for peeping to be even remotely tried.

    So when people try to ‘sell’ this, just understand that “over there” – they are secured and private. You cannot hold you cellphone up and peek into the next stall. So when they try to ‘sell’ this, it is *NOT* apples and apples. It is as different as glass is to cement.

    Bottom Line: They have very secured public bathrooms, unlike ours.

    And as one friend as a native European. If someone did try the “peeping Tom”, they would like not be around to try it again. They do not tolerate that over there, PERIOD.

    • None

      Not *every* bathroom in Europe is unisex, for starters.

      And cost must be taken into account. Not gonna happen in the USA just to appease a tiny minority of the population who won’t want unisex anyway because they *must* pee/shower/etc with the girls in order to validate their gender identity.

      • Jjb54

        Yes, this is exactly true, I was more addressing the ones that are and the serious protection of privacy that is in place for those that are.

        There are no gaps for cellphone pics or peeping Toms.

      • Jjb54

        Yes, this is exactly true, I was more addressing the ones that are and the serious protection of privacy that is in place for those that are.

        There are no gaps for cellphone pics or peeping Toms.

    • None

      Not *every* bathroom in Europe is unisex, for starters.

      And cost must be taken into account. Not gonna happen in the USA just to appease a tiny minority of the population who won’t want unisex anyway because they *must* pee/shower/etc with the girls in order to validate their gender identity.

  • Jjb54

    From some friends that went to Europe to tour, the bathrooms were indeed open to all.

    Now the thing is that there are two types of bathrooms over there:
    .. Male/Female bathroom -> that only 1 person at a time can use and there is a lock on the door.
    .. Larger areas, but the stalls themselves are doors with no way to see who is in the stall. They are indeed able to be locked. The main Restroom / Lue / is open to both sexes and it is basically to wash hands, put on makeup and such. There are NO privacy issues at all.

    Basically over there you would have to work really hard to find a “non-secured” both sex bathroom with any chance for peeping to be even remotely tried.

    So when people try to ‘sell’ this, just understand that “over there” – they are secured and private. You cannot hold you cellphone up and peek into the next stall. So when they try to ‘sell’ this, it is *NOT* apples and apples. It is as different as glass is to cement.

    Bottom Line: They have very secured public bathrooms, unlike ours.

    And as one friend as a native European. If someone did try the “peeping Tom”, they would like not be around to try it again. They do not tolerate that over there, PERIOD.

  • Starley

    I keep finding case after case with just a quick search. Another was cross dresser in ladies room with camera 11/16/15 in Fredericksburg, VA. The third person caught in 6 months.

    http://www.bullrunnow.com/news/article/prince_william_county_police_beat_nov._17_2015“>Prince
    William County Police Beat Nov. 17, 2015

    This seems like it will increase as police no longer have enforcement capabilities that were in place in the past.

  • Starley

    I keep finding case after case with just a quick search. Another was cross dresser in ladies room with camera 11/16/15 in Fredericksburg, VA. The third person caught in 6 months.

    http://www.bullrunnow.com/news/article/prince_william_county_police_beat_nov._17_2015“>Prince
    William County Police Beat Nov. 17, 2015

    This seems like it will increase as police no longer have enforcement capabilities that were in place in the past.

  • justaguyiknow

    In my 47 years on this rock I have always thought that gendered public toilets were stupid. The stupidest application of this is when there are both male and female public toilets that allow for one person at a time. Who cares which one I use! I actually prefer to use the female toilet in that case. It’s usually cleaner. Most men just don’t aim well.

  • justaguyiknow

    In my 47 years on this rock I have always thought that gendered public toilets were stupid. The stupidest application of this is when there are both male and female public toilets that allow for one person at a time. Who cares which one I use! I actually prefer to use the female toilet in that case. It’s usually cleaner. Most men just don’t aim well.

  • jussincredible

    These restrooms are a terrible idea, thats all I really gotta say.

  • jussincredible

    These restrooms are a terrible idea, thats all I really gotta say.

  • Amanda Mazer

    If I had passed out in college in the bathroom after a night of drinking, I wouldn’t care who found me so long as they placed me on my side and called 911. Man, woman, or anyone on the spectrum, I’d have just wanted a good person there. I think that this discussion simply speaks to how we need to improve how we teach consent in our society. I trust the men around me to help me rather than assault me. Is there a risk that someone, anyone, would take advantage of the situation? Yes. But if we do a better job teaching consent and not talking about men as sexual creatures who just can’t control themselves, we’d be a much better society.

  • TheGoyWonder

    What is the symbol for a gender neutral bathroom? How about a stick figure with pixelated crotch?

    Also urinals save 160 billion gallons of water per year.

  • Erik Richard Bodo

    Any opinion here is a matter of walking on thin ice. I’ve read the article, and I’ve read many of the comments posted. I’ve read the arguments, of both extreme sides of the debate.

    I just have a really hard time seeing how this is going to work out. Look, I’m all for trying new things, I’m all for change. I get there are all types of people out there. But having co-ed bathrooms, to me, seems to go against our 9th amendment: the right to privacy. Privacy is the ability of an individual or group to seclude themselves, or information about themselves, and thereby express themselves selectively. The boundaries and content of what is considered private differ among cultures and individuals, but share common themes. As a man, I feel co-ed bathrooms is an invasion of privacy. They don’t call them “public parts”, but “private parts”, and for good reason.
    I get people want to help out other people. I really do. But not at the expense of my rights, specifically noting my 9th amendment right. The attacks are going to happen, regardless of gender bathrooms, co-ed bathrooms, or no bathrooms. I see an argument, how having more people present would reduce attacks. That is a load of BS. Does nobody remember the Panama Beach rape case? THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT… and it’s not the first time it has even happened, as quoted by the Bay County Sherriff. And there are other cases out there were dozens to hundreds of bystanders watched a crime and did not step forth. So yeah, more people = less attacks? Not buying that.
    I saw another argument, how European countries are instituting these neutral gender bathrooms. That’s fine. They can do what they want. But… I don’t want to jump off a cliff just because I see someone else do it.
    Regardless, this is my opinion, an opinion that is held by some men and some women alike. I’m not speaking on behalf of anybody but myself. I’ll gladly keep my urinal thank you very much.

    • J-dawg

      The Ninth Amendment is not related to privacy. However, public restrooms are already public spaces. You have privacy in your own stall, but your privacy right doesn’t extend to an interest in the anatomy of the person in the next stall.

      • Erik Richard Bodo

        “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
        This amendment is more of a general privacy that the first 8 amendments did not cover. So yes the ninth amendment is indeed related to privacy. And you’re right, public restrooms are public, but in regard to privacy from the opposite sex.

        • J-dawg

          The Ninth Amendment is a guideline for interpreting the rest of the Constitution. All it says is that “just because we might have left something out doesn’t mean a particular right doesn’t exist.”

  • anna kakazu preble

    Because I’m a woman of color, my focus here is on yet another tactic to propogate hatred and discrimination, by “using the transgender community the same way the black and hispanic community were used” as scapegoats. Don’t believe me? Fine. But consider the following interview in how bills like this are an emerging new tactic of discrimination. http://www.democracynow.org/2016/4/18/this_is_not_a_bathroom_bill

  • ChrysD

    Look, if some folks want to do this, how about every other floor in academic halls alternate between normal bathrooms and those that aren’t. Those comfortable with these newly assigned bathrooms can use them. Those who don’t can still be close to a normal bathroom as well. In dorms, give choices what you want on co-Ed floors. Single-sex floors shouldn’t be messed with.

    As for public bathrooms otherwise, most should remain unchanged. Especially those used by children, should be left unchanged. Nothing bigoted about being modest. Honestly, bathrooms weren’t based on gender, but sex. Using the restroom is a physical/ biological (sex) activity, not a social one (gender). But if you are trans had a sex change, then you use the bathroom that matches up what sex you look like. If you are trans and haven’t had a sex change, a cross dresser, you use it according to the sex you were born with. Trans already chose. A man who identifies as a woman should go all the way or nothing. If you choose to look like a man, use men’s room. Look like a woman, use women’s room. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    • J-dawg

      Using the bathroom is not a sex activity (unless you have a fetish and/or perv on strangers in public spaces). Males and females both urinate and defecate, and the minor difference in how they perform one has absolutely no bearing on whether they need entirely separate rooms to do so.

      • ChrysD

        I will be more clear. I never said using the bathroom is a sex activity as in making love. I said using the bathroom is a physical/ biological activity, not a social one. I placed sex in parenthesis to show that sex lines up as a physical characteristic and I put gender in parenthesis to show that gender lines up as a social characteristic. So I was using a different definition of sex as in man and woman.

        Men and women actually urinate differently and bathrooms have been designed to meet those differences. Since going to the rest room means exposing genitalia, we have separate rooms. Unless maybe it is at a nudist colony or something.

        • J-dawg

          The dichotomy you were trying to make is false. Bathroom behavior is very much a social construct. You can see this by looking at the vast differences between how different cultures across the globe approach it. While a person’s sex organ determines the angle at which urine leaves the body, it changes nothing else about the urination/defecation process.

          • ChrysD

            Done talking with a brick wall. No matter what I write, you will look to prove me wrong. Whatever.

          • J-dawg

            I disagree with you, so of course I will make points contrary to yours. It shows an incredible weakness of position to refuse to engage with someone because they contradict you.

  • InnerGrind

    I think gender neutral bathrooms are a horrible Idea! I agree with the person that wrote the article above. If I go to a sorority party and get a little tipsy and end up passed out in a bathroom stall when I get back to the dorm I want a female finding me, scooping me up and helping back to my bed. Sexual assault is much more likely to happen in that scenario if a half drunk college guy were to find me or any other female passed out in a bathroom stall. Sexual assault is a violation and a horrible thing to happen to any female. However I guess for me the only exception would be if your a fully transitioned male from a female and you want to use the guys bathroom then go ahead. Or If your a fully transitioned female from a male and you want to use our bathroom~ladies bathroom. Then I guess go ahead. Other than that It makes me feel very uncomfortable to have guys in my bathroom. That is a private space for all of us females and I don’t want to have anyone else but other females in there with me. Please think about what I’m saying…On the no less important end but smaller scale there’s that time of the month. I don’t want guys around me when I’m on my period ever. On the much bigger issue and problem is that I don’t want a guy taking advantage of me because I’m drunk and he finds me bent over throwing up or passed out & he thinks no one will know and he can get away with sexually assaulting me or raping me. That’s really scary and Not ok in any way, shape or form!

  • I think people are confused by Gender Neutral restrooms

    Jeez people you have a GENDER NEUTRAL RESTROOM IN YOUR OWN HALLWAY?!?!

    They seem to assume there is going to be work boots under the stall next to you in the ladies room… in most if not all cases… the “Gender Neutral” restrooms are what used to be labeled “family restrooms”

    ( i know this because I am the guy that builds them and puts up the signs) most.. all… are single toilet or sometimes two toilet restrooms with a LOCKING DOOR… available to EVERYONE or ANYONE

    KINDA EXACTLY LIKE THE “Gender neutral” restroom in your OWN HOUSE !!!

    Jeez people you have a GENDER NEUTRAL RESTROOM IN YOUR OWN HALLWAY !! ‪#‎justplaindumb‬ and If someone “identifies” as the opposite sex, (ala Caitlyn Jenner) they are prob either seeking out these family / gender neutral restrooms or avoiding having to use multi stall (actually we all try to avoid these!) restrooms anyway ?!?!

    IN very few instances are MEN / WOMEN going to be sharing urinals or passing TP under the stall walls ?!!

    Now COLORED ONLY drinking fountains are something we should be looking …. KIDDING [email protected]! Don’t forget that was only 1964…

    My .02 on the Gender Neutral restroom Hysteria. worth every penny Y’all paid for it. Bigger Fish to Fry… like the establishment stealing thew election from TRUMP & BENRIE !?!

  • anna kakazu preble

    Doesn’t it give a whiff of asininity or banality to shout other people down about shy bladders and extremely rare numbers of sexual assault (not by a trans person, btw – making them bogeymen aren’t enough) when “rampant” discrimination and acts of hate are being reported (outside the US, -sigh-) these days? Would it really hurt to try walking a mile in the shoes of people who always feel like moving targets in the public eye?

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/13/transgender-homicide-victims-us-has-hit-historic-high

  • Freethinker

    The author of this article seems to think that if a guy wants to go into a women’s bathroom and rape women, he will somehow be thwarted by a law banning his entry. That is about as much of a barrier to the rapist as the popup question on porn site asking if you are 18+ is a barrier to high school students.

    • None

      It is a barrier. Since if a strange man is seen walking into the woman’s bathroom, change room, etc, he will be questioned. He will be kicked out, as males have no right to be in female only safe spaces.

      But, if we are told that males have the right to be in woman only spaces if they claim that they are women, then no one will question him and the women and girls won’t be able to kick him out. He can just state that he identifies as a woman and that he has the legal right to be there.

      • Freethinker

        I fail to see how that, in any way, deals with my point. If a guy wants to rape women in a bathroom, being banned from the bathroom will not, in any way, alter his plans.

        Rape is already illegal. Making a portion of the rapist’s prep for rape illegal won’t make the guy suddenly think to himself “self, let’s abandon this plan to rape because now there is an additional law I am breaking and unlike the prison time of rape, breaking this law carries a minor fine and possibly community service”

        Additionally, M2F women ARE women. If you think a women’s bathroom is a necessary safe space, well then both cis and trans women should be allowed to be there. That said, I prefer gender neutral bathrooms, but that is a separate issue.

        • None

          If you see a man walking into a woman’s facility you stop him. You call the cops. You kick him out once he is in there.

          You want people to be trained to look the other way and assume that he has the internal gender identity of woman? To never question his presence?

          It is a matter of risk reduction.

          • Freethinker

            Do you think that rapists wait until a place is crowded to start raping people? No, there won’t be people to “kick him out”. If the guy is going there for sex crimes, he is going in when the area is clear. Even if he were legally allowed to enter, he isn’t going to start raping people in a busy public bathroom, he would obviously need to wait until he could have one person alone with nobody directly outside to hear her yelling.

            This is not risk reduction, it is prejudice and discrimination that will really just result in a negative experience for all involved. Putting these laws in place will legally force men into the bathrooms you want them banned from. F2M men can be big burly dudes with full beards and big muscles. They are also often attracted to women. If you think having men allowed

          • None

            Don’t bother locking your house, burglars gonna burgle anyway.

          • Freethinker

            That comparison is not even close to accurate, and you just ignored all of my arguments as to why. It seems like you have just assumed the truth of your conclusion and now reject anything that doesn’t fit your conclusion. Maybe the truth is you are unwilling to admit that your idea was mistaken.

            Either way, you seem to be exhibiting intellectual dishonesty. I like to say that you are never wrong as long as you always accept the best arguments and evidence offered. In this case, holding onto your position given the arguments I offered and the arguments others have given you makes you wrong. Your position has been taken apart by a number of commenters.

          • None

            Your argument is that people should just “look the other way” when men enter woman only safe spaces because “rapists gonna rape” so to hell with risk reduction.
            And for the record I oppose this law. It is a Trojan horse.
            https://www.propublica.org/article/why-north-carolinas-new-anti-lgbt-law-is-a-trojan-horse

            What I am arguing against is the assertion that women are not entitled to safe spaces because some dude should be able to claim that he identifies as a woman to gain access. To hell with how the women feel about it. They just need to “get over it” if they see an obvious man in their safe space.

          • Freethinker

            That is known as the straw man fallacy. My argument was obviously not the garbage you just posted, and pretending it was is intellectually dishonest.

          • None

            You wrote, two days ago:

            “””The author of this article seems to think that if a guy wants to go into a women’s bathroom and rape women, he will somehow be thwarted by a law banning his entry. That is about as much of a barrier to the rapist as the popup question on porn site asking if you are 18+ is a barrier to high school students.”‘

            In other words, there should be no laws keeping men out of women’s bathrooms, since gender identity trumps all, and ‘rapists gonna rape’

            You are also ignoring privacy concerns, which are rather important to a lot of people.

          • Freethinker

            “In other words, there should be no laws keeping men out of women’s bathrooms, since gender identity trumps all, and ‘rapists gonna rape'” That is straw manning my words. Additionally, I further clarified in my comments to you. You are just being a petulant, dishonent, jackass who knows he is wrong and is trying to make it look like I said things I never said to get himself a “win”. Given that I already disavowed the idea that my reasons for an opposition to these laws are not a childishly stupid “no point since rapists gonna rape” it shows your dishonesty by continuously claiming that this is my position.

            I also never said that gender identity trumps all, that is another straw man. Are you a farmer?

            My position is clearly that the laws would have no impact at all on a rapist and only serve to harm the trans people. It is not that I oppose something that would actually prevent rape because rapists would rape anyway, I oppose it because it hurts one group and is completely useless in preventing the thing you think it prevents. These laws would be as useful in protecting you from rape as a condom would be in protecting you from a lethal injection.

            The straw man version you laid out implies that I oppose something that could prevent rape. You are trying to make it sound like my position is that of the drug dealer selling to children who says “kids gonna get drugs anyway, so no problem with me selling them to kids”.

          • None

            My position is clearly that the laws would have no impact at all on a rapist and only serve to harm the trans people

            I will ask you a question by way of example.

            The University of Toronto is separating the number of gender-neutral bathrooms after two women reported someone had taken video of them in the shower.

            The acts of voyeurism allegedly happened in two separate incidences only a few weeks into the new school year.

            Police said the first incident happened on Sept. 15 at around 10:45 a.m. in a shower on the second floor. The second instance happened four days later at a third floor shower around 9:15 p.m.

            Both women reported seeing someone reach a cellphone over while they were in the shower at Whitney Hall, a student residence in the heart of the university’s downtown campus.

            “In both instances two people noticed a cellphone coming over the edge of the shower stall,” Toronto police Const. Victor Kwong said. “When they went out they saw no one.”

            The school has since reportedly taken steps to alter their gender-neutral policy on many of the residence’s washrooms.

            Do you think that the university was in the wrong to return to sex-segregation? Since, as you say, men with evil intentions cannot be stopped.

            The funny thing is, the women were only victimized after gender neutral policies were put in place.

            http://www.citynews.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-changes-gender-neutral-washroom-policy-after-voyeurism-allegations-surface/

          • Freethinker

            “Do you think that the university was in the wrong to return to sex-segregation? Since, as you say, men with evil intentions cannot be stopped.”

            Look up the straw man fallacy. I never said that rapists can’t be stopped you stupid, idiotic, decietful jackass. I said that this particular law won;t stop them.

            As to your example, it means nothing to me. Statistics are meaningful, isolated incidents mean nothing.

          • Freethinker

            Also, you just went ahead and ignored when I pointed out that many trans men have had such complete transformations that they are indistinguishable from cis men. These laws would force those men into the bathrooms with cis women, so if you think privacy is an issue that is disrupted by having men in a women’s bathroom, these laws would guarantee such an occurrence. It would also open the door for someone like you to enter the women’s room by claiming that you are a fully transformed trans man.

          • None

            I think you missed the part where i SAID THAT I OPPOSED THE LAW

          • J-dawg

            If you are going to commit a felony (rape), you are not going to care if some tangentially-related misdemeanor (being in the wrong restroom) is added on. That has nothing to do with abandoning efforts to criminalize rape. Also, privacy concerns are an inappropriate argument to make in this context. There’s no privacy interest in someone else’s genitals.

          • None

            It’s called stopping them before they enter.

          • J-dawg

            It’s called a civil infraction will do no such thing. Restrooms are already segregated by sex, yet they still enter to commit crimes.

          • None

            You want to train people to look the other way when men enter women’s facilities.

            Now, when a man enters, he can be prevented from entering or kicked out. With the gender identity laws that you support, men will have the legal right to enter and stay in women’s facilities.

          • J-dawg

            No, you want to train them to do that. You’re the one insisting that trans men use women’s restrooms.

          • None

            You are the one insisting that I can refer to my penis as ‘female’ and enter women’s locker rooms, change rooms, bathrooms at will, based on nothing than a *claimed* internal feeling that this penis is a female organ.

            And you want everyone to look the other way, cuz reasons.

          • J-dawg

            You seem really challenged here. What someone has in their pants is no one else’s business. It also can’t be predicted by appearance in all cases. You want everyone to look the other way when a man enters a women’s restroom, because if that man has something in his pants that you wouldn’t suspect, it’s illegal for him to use the men’s room.

          • None

            It isn’t bigotry to ask people with penises to change in separate facilites from women without them.

            You think all trans women with willies will be hiding their parts in the womens? No need if you get your way.

          • J-dawg

            Trans women only use women’s rooms under your proposed rules.

          • J-dawg

            So, your point here is a cis woman might see a trans woman’s penis in a changing room? And she needs to be protected from this psychological horror?

          • None

            Women don’t want humans they perceive to be men in their locker room.

            You are violating their woman safe space when you drag a penis in there.

            You want safe space from men for yourself and you’re willing to violate other women to get it.

            Use the separate facility you selfish prick.

          • J-dawg

            “Women don’t want humans they perceive to be men in their locker room.” – Then why are you advocating rules that require this to occur?

            “You are violating their woman safe space when you drag a penis in there.” – as you’ve given ample evidence to show, that space is not safe just because men are not ‘allowed’ to enter.

            “You want safe space from men for yourself and you’re willing to violate other women to get it.” – I am a cis woman. This accusation makes no sense.

            “Use the separate facility you selfish prick.” – It makes more sense for the weirdos who are obsessed with the genitals of other people in the vicinity while they are using the facilities to use separate, dedicated facilities to accommodate their handicap.

          • None

            I never said that I supported this law.

            However, men still don’t belong in women’s bathrooms showers change rooms etc.

          • J-dawg

            You seem to define trans women as men, so long as their still have their penis. Whether or not you support a specific law, it seems quite obvious you support some form of forcing trans women to use men’s rooms.

          • None

            Trans women *are* men. They are delusional males who think that they are women.

          • J-dawg

            Except you have no reason to call the cops once you start requiring trans people to use the restroom of the sex they were assigned at birth. You would EXPECT to see men going into women’s restrooms under such rules; they are required to.

      • J-dawg

        Requiring trans people to use the restroom of the sex they were assigned at birth increases the frequency of men going into women’s restrooms. They’re not allowed to use the proper room.

        • None

          Most trans women keep their d*cks.

          • J-dawg

            Perhaps. Regardless of the proportion of trans women who undergo sex reassignment surgery (unless it’s 100%, which seems unlikely), you’ll obviously have women going into men’s rooms, too.

          • None

            If you have a penis, you can stay the hell out of women’s facilities.

          • J-dawg

            You’re getting all muddled up here. You were talking about trans women retaining their penises. You want these women to be forced to use men’s restrooms. You also want men to be forced to use women’s restrooms. These men will most likely not have penises, but they will cause the same psychological discomfort to those who do not want to see men in women’s restrooms. As an aside, your obsession with penises in women’s restrooms is deranged.

          • None

            If you have a penis you are not a female.

            This is biology 101.

          • J-dawg

            Actual biology is much more complicated than Biology 101. If you aren’t familiar with the science, you probably shouldn’t be appealing to it.

          • None

            No, it isn’t. Sex is binary. Intersex DISORDERS don’t change that.

            Males produce sperm, have testes, penises and XY chromosomes.
            Females produce ova, have vaginas and XX chromosomes.

            If humans were to disappear tomorrow, a Bull would still be different from a Cow. The sex binary is biological reality and has been for billions of years.

          • J-dawg

            Again, to avoid making yourself look foolish, you should learn more about the topic you’re attempting to wield as an argument.

          • None

            “Sex”, “male”, “female” are scientific terms. Binary sexual reproduction is 900 million years old. Sex organs, and the gametes they produce, are distinctly either male or female. Multiple sexes exist in some species of mold, but everything else engages in either binary or non-sexual reproduction.

            In most species, sex is determined by genes (karyotype). The sex-determinant genes, along with embryology, produce distinct phenotypes, male or female. Very rarely, these processes falter, and individuals of indeterminate sex are produced (known as “intersex). These do not, however, constitute extra sexes.

            What you are engaging in is anti-science woo.

          • J-dawg

            I worked in immunology for six years. Anyone with more than a rudimentary understanding of biology understands that nothing in the natural world is as simplistic as you’re trying to make it.

          • None
  • Jayne Locke

    Seriously? The worst thing that is likely to occur with a transsexual woman in a female bathroom is that somebody might feel uncomfortable. On the other hand, you’re totally at ease forcing me into a male bathroom where I stand a very high chance of being assaulted, raped of even killed by some bigoted jerkoffs. Why is my safety any less important?

    • None

      I can seee you don’t care about the safety of women. It’ all about YOU

      Transgender woman who raped girl before transition sent to male prison

      Ayrton, 34, was found guilty on Friday of raping a 15-year-old girl in the autumn of 2004. The week-long trial at Portsmouth crown court heard that she had attempted to kill herself last summer.

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/08/transgender-woman-raped-girl-before-transition-male-prison-davina-ayrton

      Or this:

      Richard Masbruch brutally raped and tortured a Fresno woman in 1991.
      Today, in a case that may be the first of its kind, he lives in a women’s prison.

      http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-331532

      Or this:

      Male Transgender sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for assault on woman in women’s restroom:

      “Hagan was convicted in July of punching a fellow bar patron in the mouth. The victim, 40-year-old Cheryl Partsch, lost five teeth and could end up paying as much as $60,000 in medical bills.

      “Hagan was accused of battering Partsch because she questioned his presence in the women’s restroom.”

      http://www.sptimes.com/News/92599/Pasco/Cross_dressing_man_se.shtml

      Definitely a woman’s prison for this trans woman:

      Hong Kong -” A transvestite man caught dressed as a nurse in the female washroom at a Hong Kong public hospital has been jailed, a news report said Thursday.

      Chung Kai-lun, 29, was found wearing women’s clothes and a surgical mask in the hospital toilet less than a year after being given a suspended sentence for dressing as a schoolgirl in a school canteen.”

      “”I wanted to see women naked,” he was quoted as telling investigators. “Dressing up as a woman was a step to do that.

      http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2003/11/27/Cross-dresser-arrested-in-bath-house/UPI-63871069941991/

      And these, they should all be sent to women’s prisons. For their safety.

      GREENSBURG, Pa. — “A 48-year-old man allegedly dressed as a woman and went into a girls’ locker room at Greensburg Salem High School, ”

      http://www.wtae.com/r/3716265/detail.html

      Purdue police investigate report of

      man taking photographs in

      women’s restroom

      WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. -” Purdue University police are

      investigating a reported incident in which a man dressed as

      a woman was seen taking photographs under the wall of a

      women’s bathroom stall in Yue-Kong Pao Hall of Visual and

      Performing Arts.

      The incident was reported to police about 3:30 p.m. Monday

      (March 31).

      According to a police report, a woman was in a bathroom

      stall on the third floor of the building and saw a hand

      holding a blue flip-phone camera beneath the door. She left

      the restroom and then returned to confront the person. At

      that point, she realized the person was a man dressed as a

      woman.”

      http://www.purdue.edu/police/pdf/2006/033108.pdf

      2009 “Richard Rendler, 60, of San Jose, a registered sex offender, found that out on Friday in Campbell, when he was arrested at the PruneYard Shopping Center on misdemeanor loitering charges. Campbell Police Sgt. Dave Carmichael said Rendler was arrested after having been caught in the womens’ restroom of an unnamed store for “several minutes.”

      Police were tipped off to Rendler’s whereabouts shortly before noon on Friday, when a witness called authorities to say a man was getting out of his car wearing fake breasts and a wig and carrying a purse. The witness saw the man near a bank and thought it was a little “weird” to see a man wearing what seemed to be a disguise, Carmichael said.”

      http://www.mercurynews.com/crime/ci_11558044

      According to the Megan’s Law Web site, Render has been previously arrested on charges of child molestation and indecent exposure.”

      http://www.romenews-tribune.com/view/full_story/6822843/article-Rome-man-arrested-in-women’s-bathroom-at-Calhoun-Walmart?instance=home_Most_popular 2010- Georgia –Rome man arrested in women’s bathroom at Calhoun Walmart

      by Calhoun Times

      “A Rome man was released on bond after being arrested for allegedly taking his clothes off in front of children in the women’s restroom of Walmart in Calhoun. Police officers arrived to find Burnes wearing a dark woman’s suit including a short skirt and jacket, black leather coat, black high heals, red nail polish, green eye shadow and women’s jewelry. According to the witness, Burnes had been in the women’s section of the store with his skirt “kicked up showing his white girdle and dark thong underwear.”

      A man has been arrested in Hokkaido for putting on some make-up and a blouse and hanging out in a women’s public toilet:

      “Tsukasa Okazaki, 45, the banker from Monbetsu, Hokkaido, was arrested for trespassing. He admits to the allegations.

      “I wanted people to see me as some sort of weirdo,” he told the police.

  • anna kakazu preble

    Well, having presented prepared remarks in advocacy of these policies before city and county officials, I can comfortably say that our region understands the importance of not blocking anyone from living as full members of the public sphere, and unfettered by senseless methods of control intended to prevent people from being comfortable in public. Not providing adequate facilities where everyone can relieve their biological needs is one such method of control.

    Be that as it may, of course there are others who disagree. To them I say: There are other ways to convince lawmakers: http://www.wsj.com/articles/paypal-cancels-plans-for-operations-center-400-jobs-over-north-carolinas-transgender-law-1459872277
    -mic drop-

  • lee dalton

    This is the most disgusting new push from the liberals I’ve seen lately. Where is the common sense? As a woman, bathroom acts are a private matter. You try to do your business and get out of there. And now we’re allowing for choice on which bathroom to use? This has really opened a can of worms, b/c perverts can go in under the guise of “I’m not sure which sex I identify with.” And who wants to share a restroom with a DNA certified member of the opposite sex? Now we will never know. I think I’ll be seeking out the woods from now on….so sick of this political hyper sensitivity.

    • None

      This has really opened a can of worms, b/c perverts can go in under the guise of “I’m not sure which sex I identify with

      Liberals have assured us that:

      1) it will be possible to tell a cisman predator from a trans who just wants to pee
      2) that rapes will happen *regardless* so why not let men into women’s safe spaces without reservation
      3) that if a few women are raped per year it’s ok because trans women are more important than ciswomen

      • LostInUnderland

        Bathrooms are not women’s safe spaces. There is nothing that currently keeps men out of women’s rooms. However, the likely hood of running into another man in that space seems likely to curb this idea that you can just go perv out in there.

        Rape is never okay for any reason against anyone. You are the only one that has made that assertion.

        • None

          DO YOU THINK THAT IT WAS BIGOTED AND WRONG OF THE UNIVERSITY TO RETURN TO SEX SEGREGATED SPACES SINCE MEN STARTED PEEPING ON WOMEN RIGHT AFTER GENDER NEUTRAL POLICIES WERE ENFORCED?

          The University of Toronto is separating the number of gender-neutral bathrooms after two women reported someone had taken video of them in the shower.

          The acts of voyeurism allegedly happened in two separate incidences only a few weeks into the new school year.

          Police said the first incident happened on Sept. 15 at around 10:45 a.m. in a shower on the second floor. The second instance happened four days later at a third floor shower around 9:15 p.m.

          Both women reported seeing someone reach a cellphone over while they were in the shower at Whitney Hall, a student residence in the heart of the university’s downtown campus.

          “In both instances two people noticed a cellphone coming over the edge of the shower stall,” Toronto police Const. Victor Kwong said. “When they went out they saw no one.”

          The school has since reportedly taken steps to alter their gender-neutral policy on many of the residence’s washrooms.

          Do you think that the university was in the wrong to return to sex-segregation? Since, as you say, men with evil intentions cannot be stopped.

          The funny thing is, the women were only victimized after gender neutral policies were put in place.

          http://www.citynews.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-changes-gender-neutral-washroom-policy-after-voyeurism-allegations-surface/

    • LostInUnderland

      Do you have separate bathrooms for males and females at your house?

    • J-dawg

      You said it yourself, bathroom acts are a private matter. It’s none of anyone’s business who else is doing what in the bathroom (unless it’s inappropriate, in which case gender is irrelevant and the behavior is likely proscribed already). Sex-segregated bathrooms are an outdated relic of the Victorian age that serve no purpose in today’s society; there’s certainly no rational reason to believe they increase safety.

  • ssybesma

    I am dead set against gender neutral community bathrooms as an exclusive choice. This has absolutely zero to do with discrimination or anything else that is conceivably wrong. This is getting as far as possible into every individual’s personal space and invading their sense of propriety and privacy in an extremely personal way. If YOU are comfortable with this completely insane weirdness, get a separate community bathroom for yourselves!!! Don’t force it on US normal people!!! I am a straight male and yet I can completely understand the vast majority of women would feel uncomfortable about some strange guy walking into their restroom and into what is rightfully their personal space. It’s bad enough guys stare at them OUTSIDE of the bathroom…now they have no safe place anymore. They would rightly feel threatened and would have a solid complaint which has to be respected, which MEANS that this cannot stand unless you want to have three sets of community bathrooms in every business and public place in this country.
    In the workplace, this situation would be a perfect incubator for tens of millions of sexual discrimination and sexual harassment lawsuits which would clog the court system.
    What genius lawyer thought up this BS?
    For the pervert college professors out there pushing this crap…grow up! This is sophistry at its most extreme. Completely ridiculous that this is even being seriously argued about and considered.

    • None

      Yeah. Why is it that the discomfort of men in dresses absolutely needs to be considered but women can just shut up about their own concerns?

      Oh, and when given a gender neutral bathroom. the trans fetishists decilne, as it doesn’t validate their identity that they are real women:

      Neutral Bathroom (VIDEO)

      A few dozen student and adult supporters turned out Friday night from the surrounding area to support transgender student Lila Perry.
      lila perry rally

      The protesters want more money and effort to organizations that promote transgender students.

      Lila Perry made national news after she started using the girls locker room at rural Hillsboro high school.
      The school had set aside a gender neutral bathroom for the student’s use.

      TGP reporter Adam Sharp attended the event and had a chance to speak with student Lila Perry.
      Perry says she was asked to use a gender neutral bathroom but that it was “dehumanizing” and that’s why he started using the girls lockeroom and bathroom.

      Lila Perry: I’m fighting for transgender rights not just for me but for all transgender students across the state… I used the girls restroom and people kind of lost it.

      Adam Sharp: And there were reports that there was an extra bathroom made available to you. Is that correct?

      Lila Perry: It was. But it’s very dehumanizing to be reduced to just “gender neutral” to where I feel like they’re just going to take all of us and put us in our own bathroom which I don’t like.

      http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/hillsboro-trans-student-lila-perry-says-its-dehumanizing-to-use-gender-neutral-bathroom-video/

      Trans women are entitled to female sex only spaces. Why, because those spaces belong to them. Women don’t have a say, nor should they, as they are just bigots and all, worrying about ‘safety’. Pfft.

      • ssybesma

        My main point is that trans people’s civil rights do not extinguish the long-standing rights of both men and women to the peace of mind/propriety/privacy/safety (call it what you want) afforded in having their own community restrooms by forcing everyone together into one community bathroom in order to make them happy. Have to say though, this movement seems more like a childish ploy for attention to me but it’s going to backfire.
        I’m sorry but if you choose to be different (your perfect right in my opinion), be different and deal with the possible necessity of your own community restroom if you cannot work with the current two choices. Don’t expect to successfully browbeat (probably) 98% of this country into actively participating in your agenda to have only one choice for a community restroom. Not going to happen.

        That is a bridge way too far. Find another way.

        • None

          Yeah, they do extinguish the rights of women if male bodied persons have the right to use women’s facilities based on nothing more than a internal gender identity which anyone can lie about to gain access to women’s facilities in order to perv on women.

          • anna kakazu preble

            How very paternalistic of you to speak “for” us. See my comments above about men like you who don’t say jack when it comes to the overall sexual assault rates in this country. Red…..Herring…..

          • None

            Empty ad hominem attack.

            /yawn.

          • anna kakazu preble

            So….I didn’t accuse you of posting drunk. I asked you to clarify your words. Which you can’t. You just make false equivalents between drug abuse and identity expression.

          • None

            Citation needed.

          • None

            Btw, you misgendered me. Assuming that I must identify as a man because of my name.

            Transphobe!

          • anna kakazu preble

            and…..?

          • None

            Why do you want to exterminate trans people by purposely misgendering us you monster???

          • anna kakazu preble

            “misgendered” oh HAAAAAAAAaa you just can’t make this stuff up.

          • None

            Gender identity is between the ears.

            I thought you were pro-trans?

          • ChrysD

            How very “feminist” liberal women are speaking as if they speak for ALL women. And they would NEVER use ad hominem attacks against women who have opposing viewpoints. No. Especially in a comments box. We are all so mature in them. Cmon really?

          • anna kakazu preble

            If you’re addressing me, chrysD, why don’t you clarify your implication that I’m a hypocrite or otherwise inconsistent. I’ve addressed the talking points on this discussion, and I’m not into judging other people I don’t personally know.

            I stand by the statement that in a country where sexual assault is a national epidemic, to focus on a myth that transgender people will attack women in restrooms is a red herring argument.

            PS: I do not identify my position on the political spectrum as a “feminist liberal [woman]”

          • anna kakazu preble

            ….or I suppose you could be following Phenalong’s ill “logic” that would label me a “monster” (judge much?) because I “misgendered” that poster – an apparent misnomer which, as they explained, was me ASSUMING they’re male. The thing is, phenalong, and chrysD, I am in the school of thought which does not conflate gender with sex. To us, they’re two different concepts. Just wanted to clarify my position, since I’m so immature — but hey,if I didn’t stand by my words in public fora I would use a pseudonym. 😀 Have a nice day….

          • ChrysD

            I find women who go all “paternalistic and speaking for us” whenever a man argues hard to stomach. He does speak for me and some other women as you speak for some women. I find that language judgmental. It is a PC way of trying to shut someone up and on top of that, they have not right to speak, it isn’t about them.

            I have no problem with the statement that sexual assault is a national epidemic. I am less inclined to believe a trans guy will attack than another man. Rights are a balancing act as you well know. A trans guy having a right to barge into a woman’s space intrudes on my space. I value privacy and modesty. I don’t want myself or my daughters or my young sons intruded upon by grown men who look like men.

            I don’t identify as cis either, but the cultural elitists do like to make labels and plenty of us obey the rules of those labels from on high. Women who speak for women and don’t allow opposing voices from men are given the label liberal feminist.

          • None

            Here is what has me scratching my head. We hear from the SJWs that rape culture is a constant problem. That men rape women at ever opportunity. That colleges specifically are a hotbed of rape.

            Then these same SJWs turn around and say that gender neutral showers etc on campus is totes ok because MEN DON’T RAPE AND IF THEY DO IT’S OK CUZ TRANS PEOPLE ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Very interesting that a non-cis individual as yourself has taken the position you state.

            However, I’m perfectly entitled to my opinion as a non-white woman who has already experienced exclusion in public life. AND, I’m entitled to state that publicly without having my character attacked.

            Just as your experiences inform your opinion, I inform upon mine. However, as many of us who study intimate and sexual violence know very well, it’s not trans people who contribute to the mysogin that makes sexual assault an epidemic — it is, as you put it, “man dressed as a man”. I’m quite confused by your clarifiying comments, frankly, mostly because we’re not talking about men who are “dressed as a man”, because that’s not the popular definition of transgender as applied here.

            When we talk about the new jim crow politics here we are using those who fall outside the heteronormative definitions (e.g., nonconforming gender, etc). I notice that “pc culture” is quickly becoming code for asserting supremacy over the efforts to reform such laws which empower discrimination and violence, and I’m not going to allow anyone to shame me into challenging legacies of racism and other forms of hatred and violence weaponized against us.

          • None

          • anna kakazu preble

            very strange. It seemed as though my initial comment was deleted – sorry to post a second redundant response.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Very interesting that you don’t identify as cis and have stated your position as such. It was MY response to someone else to not speak for all women. How does me admonishing someone who states a false claim impose upon your ability or opportunity to speak your own mind?

            However, I’m very confused by your clarifying comments because the transgender community as we have defined for the purposes of challenging prejudice and hatred against that community is NOT ‘grown men who look like men”, or men disguising themselves as women. That is not the definition that policy discussion has adopted where the laws been passed that protect transgender people from harrassment. Perhaps “non conforming gender” would be a better “label” to communicate the identity concept.

            When I refer to labels, it’s to allow others who aren’t familar with my community to be able to understand the *concept* of discrimination and hatred as we have experienced it. I’m starting to wonder if “PC culture” is going from a meaningless label to codespeak for the pushback to challenge racism, sexism, xenophobia and other behaviors. Without labels how else could you be able to understand the spectrum of discrimination and violence that would otherwise go unnamed and be invisible?

          • ChrysD

            Let me correct myself. It isn’t that I don’t identify as a woman…I am a woman. Period. I reject the label cis. I reject it as much as I would reject white Caucasian. It’s a either double positive or an unnecessary qualifier. I don’t need a Latin prefix reaffirming that I am what I am. That my genotype and phenotype match up.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I appreciate you explaining that, and I understand that you fit the categories that are important to you. That isn’t the case for everyone, and some people with social markers that were considered unimportant in the past are now being targeted because laws which require people to use bathrooms which correspond to their biological sex have brought those once-invisible markers to the forefront.

            The conversation on this board assumes that (1) inclusion can’t be achieved by direct access (“single user”) bathrooms, and (2) that in “gang style” bathrooms with multiple stalls, it’s like people are going to be in other people’s “personal space” by sitting on the same toilet seat or standing in front of urinals (why would a urinal in an inclusive bathroom not have its own stall?).

            If allowing transgender people to quietly and peacefully meet their biological needs isn’t a compelling enough reason, then consider the parents who have children of the opposite sex (including single dads who seem to have been semi-invisible) and caretakers who are tending to the needs of elderly charges.

          • ChrysD

            Sex is physical and gender has social connotations. Let’s start with that premise. Those who feel their genotype and phenotype do not correspond to who they ARE…that happens. Society is letting them express whichever gender they believe is their real one.

            In social and cultural contexts, that’s one thing. Not forcing them to be untrue to their beliefs about themselves. But meeting their biological needs is not a social activity. It is a physical one. They can meet their needs in a bathroom according to their sex, whether the one they were born with or changed. Men’s rooms facilitate men’s bodies and women’s rooms are designed for the needs of women. So their biological needs are met. What the conversation is about is fulfilling their internal, non biological needs.

            I have my own internal needs. I would feel nervous letting my children use a public women’s bathroom that a person of the male sex, regardless of what gender they believe themselves to be. Not only because someone who is stronger than me is in there when we are more vulnerable, but also modesty and privacy. Those who want to use the women’s room need to look like women. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Can’t keep your birth sex and expect everyone to treat you like the opposite sex.

            What I find difficult to fathom is that a person who considers themselves to be a woman doesn’t want to share a bathroom with men, but can’t get in their minds that I don’t want to either. That is my position. I don’t want to share a public bathroom with multiple stalls with men. But y’all deny me that. We aren’t all going to agree about what gender a trans person is. Freedom is both of us living our lives according to our beliefs as long as we don’t intrude on others. If we must switch bathrooms around, have three- men, women, inclusive all genders or leave the women’s alone and make the men’s room inclusive.

            They aren’t just now being targeted. They have always been under these social mores. It is that just recently they are vying for a seat at the ruling table. They want to dictate back to us after we have dictated to them.

            Single dads? I’m for family bathrooms. Parents being able to take multiple little kids in with them, so they can keep an eye on them. You can find them around. Maybe ask for more of those for starters.

          • anna kakazu preble

            That’s why, again, I and many others really address the idea of providing unfettered restroom access (or bus seats, or water fountains) to all human beings, to “direct access” restroom facilities, where only one person can go in and use the facilities at a time.

            Parents have testified that they’re able to monitor their children’s safety and other needs in a single user restroom ****much**** more effectively than in a multi stall bathroom, which was what this article addresses, for some baffling reason.

            American bathrooms are so antiquated, compared to other societies in the world, that I’m not really surprised (but always disappointed) that we can’t discuss that transgender people can use single user facilities without being assaulted, harrassed, or arrested, simply because of their gender expression.

            What my city and other cities have done is upgrade our signage on single-user bathrooms so that they’re no longer marked wo/men; rather they’re marked “all users”.

            What states like North Carolina and Mississippi have proposed is to LEGISLATE and CODIFY a rule that all the other people here have repeated: to force people to conform to archaic signage that marks them in public is FORCING THEM to use antiquated labels.

            The other assumption on this board, while we’re on the topic of maturity, is the baseline implication that there’s a criminal element in non-conforming expressions of gender identity.

            In my experience, people who discuss slices of pie or eating and having my cake are the ones who seem most upset to me that the slices of pie are smaller now that they include everyone – not just the people who have enjoyed unearned privileges, knowingly or not. Now is the time to really think about what people have suffered in silence — and what is the proper reaction now that we can talk about a 50% rape rate amongst transexual females?

          • ChrysD

            I am not as disturbed by single user bathrooms. Making multiple stalls would be a horrible idea and should be legislated and whatnot as off the table. The opposing point to using what you deem archaic language is trying to force me to use your newspeak language. I have come across that. Physically, reality hasn’t changed. But with the power of words, semantics, presto change we force these new labels and words onto everybody and dictate how one must think and believe that our reality is the only valid one. We don’t allow folks to use their archaic labels on themselves. We must all use the language and be stirred in the PC groupthink.

            I don’t agree that non conforming is criminal. I am counter cultural and/ or non conformist about many things. I’m in the single digit percents on some stuff and accept the overwhelming majority I have to work around.

            Specifically non conforming genders, women dressing like men has been around for a hundred years, about the 1920s. So women cross dressing has become normalized so much that now it isn’t cross dressing.

          • anna kakazu preble

            well spoken like a white, American born biological female who’s only thinking of her own selfish interests instead of building consensus in a supposed democracy – You sound like you’d do much better in Putin’s Russia – they beat up gay people and “them” all the time.

            Framing this as “my” “newspeak” (you sound like a Bradbury fan) may help you feel as though you have control over your part of this conversation, but, indeed, this is the direction the world is taking, whether or not I was here to challenge your prejudices and misplaced fear and rage. Whether you stay in the States, though, good luck with pulling yourself up by your social bootstraps.

          • ChrysD

            So…you don’t sound angry or raging? I don’t think either of us do. I think you sound frustrated that I don’t agree with you and people don’t. You can not legislate consensus, which many do on both sides.

          • anna kakazu preble

            this is why americans only know how to bomb other people. That’s a pretty crappy superpower. I’m not furious – I have better things to do with my time than bear witness to your ugly prejudices. Men in dresses? Really? Ugh. You arrived at this exchange extremely ill informed, and I have very little tolerance for ignorance or incompetence.

            As I’ve said before, states like NC and MI think they can legislate what you say can’t be legislated. None so blind as those who will not see. But that’s ok – because the dollar is what the Americans are addicted to, and paypal, Bruce Springsteen, and alllllllll the other major economic forces listed on the page below have much more power to convince than me.

            http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a43931/north-carolina-anti-lgbt-law-boycott/

          • ChrysD

            What I mean is legislate people’s thoughts. A law makes rules and enforces rules. A consensus is what should be reached before trying to enact laws.

          • ChrysD

            I agree Republican foreign policy makers need to stop their Warhawk mindset. I think we need to ditch most of our overseas bases and get out of policing most of the world. Also, America doesn’t just bomb others. We try to tell them how to think and live and exploit them for resources, including cheap labor. Besides the capitalist stuff, we tell them they must join up the sexual revolution. We can’t seem to respect their own culture when theirs doesn’t accept those terms. So yeah our country’s elite are power hungry, manipulative jerks.

          • ChrysD

            Looked over the article you linked. Find nothing mature about taking my toys and leaving if you don’t do what I say. Not about convincing, but surrendering. People will continue to think and believe like people do. And unfortunately the more this happens, the more those of the opposing viewpoint will perceive it as bully tactics, grow even more entrenched in their beliefs, less willing to listen and assuming they must be right if bullying is the only way the other side has. Then how can consensus really be reached? People better at talking with others instead of at others will have to figure that out. Positions won’t be won on a comm box.

            In response to what they say, Those folks are part of the cultural and economic elites and wannabes. Hardly everybody. And when you have Michael Moore on your side, you may not be on the right side. Seen some of his work in college. Not impressed by the kidult. And a porn company is for the sexual revolution, how progressive of them. When they stop turning women into objects they will have my attention.

            i mentioned cross dressing. Doesn’t cross dressing mean dressing across your biological gender? I don’t see where that means literally in dresses, but in feminine dress/ attire. I don’t remember saying men in dresses. I imagine plenty of trans folks still wear pants, some wear dresses and some do both. Cross dressing is one of many ways of not conforming to gender.

            Most of the images I am bombarded with, show trans people in dresses or other feminine attire. That’s how it is branded. Like they dress to the extreme to compensate or something. Like they are saying I’m really a woman, I dress so womanly. But I think that these are probably false images in most cases. That away from the spotlight that they just get dressed in whatever is comfortable and affordable, like everyone else. These images come from the same media who airbrush woman and demand we try to conform to those images.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I appreciate the condescending tone (that’s how it’s coming across online) but infantilizing people who are being assaulted and murdered for “tricking” people (and allies like me who find that sort of violence unacceptable) is not actually a sign of moral or intellectual superiority.

          • anna kakazu preble

            despite your assumptions, I don’t care for michael moore either. I posted that article to demonstrate that there are companies out there who will implement boycotts – they don’t even need a stinking title 9 lawsuit to tell them to remove their business dollars and jobs from a state that practices discrimination in legislation. Trust me – times are a changing, and now that the changing times aren’t heralding in more rights for american women apparently that’s moot to alot of people. That’s fine – you can find job creators elsewhere then.

          • ChrysD

            Pretty safe to say we both have prejudices. If we use the word as judge before. We really don’t know who the other person really is and we can’t in this medium, so we make assumptions to fill in the pieces. Some come up true, some false and some are plain old subjective.

            I don’t know a person who doesn’t have prejudices. That’s like when somebody said oh, her, she’s not important and the other says that’s interesting I have never met a person who wasn’t important. Some prejudices are ugly. I have seen that, but that would be getting personal. I think we both are projecting some ugly into those preconceived ideas we have and that we believe the other has.

          • ChrysD

            You make being white, American born woman sound like a derogatory thing. That loses lots of people. That seems like another attack that I should just shut up because my own perspective is irrelevant. That doesn’t come across as consensus building, but attempts at conversion.

            We were talking about trans, not gays. And sometimes I use pronouns for the reason people use pronouns. Writing I over and over or trans over and over sounds tedious to my ears. You are reading more into that than was there. Yeah I said them as in a group of people- no judgement call, no adjective, no insults. People get grouped. So we are back to policing semantics again.

            I guess I have been a fan of Ray Bradbury. So? Is he on some censor list. Is he deemed non-PC, so I am a bad person for reading him? I also read Huckleberry Finn. Haven’t read Mein Kampf.

          • ChrysD

            We ALL put our own interests in. Some try to put in the interests of others as well. I won’t agree that tossing my interests out makes me selfish. For me it is how can the interests of trans be respected without disrespecting my own interests. How do we balance things. It isn’t a trans world or not. It is a world with both. So consensus must bring to the table both sides’ interest. Opposing views, yes. Enemies, don’t have to be.

            We actually live in a republic, but I digress. Being in a republic means endless debate. It can become tedious and messy. We can’t just have a group or committee decide the rules for all of us. In Star Wars, the prequels, Padame tries explains that to Anakin. He says we need to make people listen and all that. Then we get a regime like Soviets.

            I am putting out my interests. Trans put out their interests. I don’t insult, tell trans and trans advocates to shut up, but I am opinionated and that the style of my writing and thinking. I think we butt heads cuz we have that in common. Most people I have come across on comm boxes are. Not a negative thing. I am aware I am and people will disagree with me. I like to debate, as you do.

            If I am getting you right, it sounds like somewhere else in these posts, you did address a way to balance both interests. If I am getting it right, not to say who can go into a men’s room and who can go in a woman’s room- just to label single stall restrooms as restroom. I would probably be okay with that.

            But what can we to about multiple stall bathrooms that balances the concerns of both sides? It is brought up because we have lots of them out there and it is expensive to renovate all of them. So we could legislate from now on creating more single stall restrooms, but it would take years to transition down the percentage of places having multiple stalls. By the way, a local church has bathrooms this way. They had two restrooms, each with two stalls and two sinks. The women’s room stayed a women’s room and the men’s room is for anybody.

          • ChrysD

            Don’t know what being white has to do with credibility. Unless you are going all white privilege. You in the front, yeah you white guy, shut up. Never was white privilege in this country- it was WASP privilege, which I technically am not, if we got super picky about that. Not completely any of those, not at all one of those. And yeah some of my ancestors were discriminated against by WASP privilege.
            Also, do you really think white people do not face discrimination. I have been beat up for being white as a kid. It happens. But like men being victims of domestic abuse, it’s invisible.

          • anna kakazu preble

            ok, I’ll spell it out very carefully. The people who have enjoyed the most unearned privilege are those whose demographics and identity fit very neatly into the mainstream demographics that have already been established in this country. When I talk about white privilege, that doesn’t mean that you don’t have problems in life.

            #sarcasm But I can tell you are still trying to come to this conversation with an open mind – considering that your first comment to me was to label me a liberal feminist, which you definitely made sound very derogatory.

            It’s really a shame that you can’t step out of your comfort zone – many of us who aren’t white, US-born, english speaking, middle-to upper class, college-educated, have to LIVE the majority of our lives in this country outside of our comfort zones. We already display a much higher level of resilience than someone who can only point to a childhood experience as the most recent incident of bullying –

          • anna kakazu preble

            and LOL I can assure you that you are setting aside or minimizing many things as invisible. I go back to the main point I was trying to make about these bathrooms (unless it’s a problem to stay on topic around here)

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/weekend-homicide-victim-in-montgomery-was-transgender-woman/2016/04/18/cb566000-058b-11e6-bdcb-0133da18418d_story.html

          • ChrysD

            Talking with my daughter, I can see some of that. I guess what I get tired of is treating whites as a homogenous group. I will concede you have a point in my own case. But I will still argue that not all whites are recipients of white privilege.

            I get the feeling, maybe over sensitive if I am wrong, that some folks who throw around white privilege assume I have family ties to slaveholding and that my ancestors were somehow richer for being white, that I can’t earn anything, that I am automatically racist because I’m white. I don’t think I did anything to have earned that. I also see whites discriminated against, but if one is, that is somehow social justice. There are still whites out there who have been more discriminated against than either of us. They look white, but were at other end of white supremacy. There are also white folk who live in the Appalaccians who are the epitome of not privileged.

            What do I have to do to not have every positive thing I can accomplished chalked up to white privilege as if to say I didn’t earn it truly, that I am a fraud? No, I haven’t been beat up because of my race since childhood because I don’t live in the ghetto I was born in anymore. I am around mostly whites in my small Midwestern town. I don’t like big cities because I don’t like wondering about being on the receiving end of a hate crime. Have to give it to you that many POC can’t as easily move away from that situation. It’s a free country and you can move. But you don’t know which small towns are safe and welcoming and which are insular, racist ones.

          • anna kakazu preble

            for what it’s worth, I use the word white in the context of race discussions in the US – the US in my experience is the only country that refers to race. ever. If it’s a personal discussion, I’m always going to use the word ethnic origin or identity. As far as my studies have taught me, it was during the Cold War era that the US needed to solidify its nation-building against the USSR, and at that point people stopped the general use of ethnic terms (Italian, Irish, German, etc) and caucasian became the new term – that conclusion of mine may not be entirely correct, but I don’t agree with wiping out ethnic terms either, especially if this is a nation of immigrants. But perhaps that’s another discussion for another day. I don’t know.

          • ChrysD

            Yep, most people don’t realize that whites had tons of infighting the last 500 years or so. It was only a single generation before the fight for interracial marriage that the fight was for marriage across ethnicities.

          • ChrysD

            By the way, when you mention archaic words, you opened up the talk of newspeak. How you feel about newspeak, I actually feel about archaic, so my knee jerk reaction is to push it right back. The terms archaic speech/ words and newspeak are opposite sides of the coin, they are antonyms sort of speak in their connotations.

            Call yourself what you will, I call myself what I will. We are both of a kind to label ourselves however we darn well want to. 🙂 And I see that as a positive. I don’t think we should define ourselves by definitions others have of us. People will use words and have individual vocabularies and ideolects that are who they are and how they see the world. I see too many people trying to change which words we can use in an effort to guide what direction they want thinking to go. I am for common courtesy, not using swear words at each other. But I won’t adapt my language to fit another’s agenda. Or at least, I try to consider my words. Many times it is in hindsight, I am not perfect or sainted or whatever.

          • anna kakazu preble

            The redesigns of multiple stall restrooms only exist in Europe, as far as I know. The only thing being legislated and required is that transgender people MUST go to a bathroom marked with their biological sex. I’m so glad I could convince you.

          • ChrysD

            If you mean that men had an operation to appear on the outside to look like women they can use the women’s room, yeah, as long as I can’t tell, that I don’t have a problem with. It is when they look like men on the outside, they should not use women’s room. I have seen folks it was hard to tell, but I am not likely to ask for id proving gender.

            I have always thought rest rooms were marked by sex, not gender, when using terms men, women, ladies, gentlemen. I don’t think social terms are proper when labeling a room used for purely physical needs as opposed to social ones.

            Kinda confused what you may have convinced me of.

          • None

            Man films 10yo girl in bathroom. Good to know that ‘feminists’ like anna are all for making it *easier* for men like this to prey on women and girls:

            Thomas Shoemaker accused of filming girl in bathroom.

            LANCASTER, Pa. (WHTM) – A Quarryville, Pennsylvania man was arrested and charged after a 10-year-old girl told her mother that she caught him watching her as she used the bathroom.

            James Thomas Shoemaker, 19, faces one count of invasion of privacy in connection with the April 14 incident at the Sheetz in the 1100 block of Manheim Pike.

            Employees at the store said Shoemaker had been in the bathroom for about an hour.

            Police caught Shoemaker inside of a stall in the women’s bathroom in possession of a phone as described by the victim.

            Investigators determined that Shoemaker was watching porn before using his camera to look over at the stall next to him.

            Shoemaker has been released from custody with a summons to appear in court. His phone is being forensically analyzed.

            http://wncn.com/2016/04/20/man-charged-after-10-year-old-says-he-watched-her-in-bathroom/

            And there are hundreds of cases like this. Anna supports laws which will make it legal for men to claim that they are women and hang out in women’s safe spaces.

          • ChrysD

            They aren’t just now being targeted. They have always been under these social mores. It is that they are trying to get a seat at the ruling table and dictate back to us after we have dictated to them.

          • ChrysD

            Nobody speaks for all women. We don’t need to admonish others for speaking for some women. Just pretend when you see someone mention a category of a wide range people, that [Some] is in front of it, ‘Kay? Unless you are the designated speaker for the whole group, don’t assume the role of gatekeeper.

            So basically try don’t be the semantics police and then somehow I can’t play that game too.

          • LostInUnderland

            What is stopping men from doing that now? Just because you would use any excuse to perv on women does not mean most people would.

          • None

            so you want to make it easier for men to do it

            for no one to question men if they enter women’s safe spaces – bathrooms, change rooms, domestic violence shelters

            and no way to kick them out or even question their presence – since they can just *claim* to internally identify as women

            you want to make it easier for men to prey on women, and to train people not to care, to just assume that any man walking into a woman’s facility internally identifies as a woman

          • LostInUnderland

            No. I want to make women’s safe spaces unnecessary. Instead of kicking men out of the bathroom, if there are likely to be other men in the bathroom (changing area, domestic violence shelter, etc.), men are less likely to think that is a place where they can attack women with impunity. I have not read the article you linked to yet, so I will respond to that when I have.

          • None

            If women’s bathrooms are not safe spaces for women, then they cannot possibly be safe spaces for trans women either.

            So the entire argument collapses.

          • LostInUnderland

            I do not think you read my entire comment. I claimed that having men in “women’s safe spaces” would make those spaces safer. I read the article. Bathroom voyeurism is not that uncommon. I believe that making the bathroom gender neutral would make it less likely. Did this single gender bathroom designation protect these women? http://www.wdam.com/story/30546195/pizzeria-manager-to-be-sentenced-for-bathroom-voyeurism

          • None

            No, it won’t make them safer. It will just result in people looking the other way when men enter women’s safe spaces. And women will be in no position to question the man’s presence if they feel uncomfortable.

            And you’re not very bright if you think that women’s DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS will be safer if made unisex. Good way to give abusers the greenlight to come in and abuse more women. This happened in Toronto, two women were sexually assaulted by a predator who claimed to be a woman. He got into the shelter and sexually assaulted a deaf woman ffs. In a place that was supposed to be safe. Adding *more* men, and not questioning their presence won’t make it safer for women. That’s just daft. And it probably didn’t occur to you that women escaping VIOLENT MEN might not want to be around men. Women traumatized by violence.

            Facilities are segregated by sex, because most people want them that way — especially locker rooms, where they do not want to disrobe with members of the opposite sex.

            The call by some now is to change the segregation criterion from physical sex to gender identity.
            No compelling rationale has been put forth for this.

          • LostInUnderland

            Men are also victims of domestic abuse. Women that are escaping violent men do not need to have the false idea that all men are violent reinforced. The Toronto shelter was gendered. Did that make it safer? Do you think men are more or less likely to attack women in a place where another man could walk in versus a place that is supposed to be female only?

          • None

            The Toronto shelter was safe until they let a man in.

          • ChrysD

            If men are in women’s safe spaces, they aren’t women’s anymore, are they? Which would be “women’s” safe spaces. How far down the line before women lose their affirmative action rights when we get all gender neutral.

          • anna kakazu preble

            citation needed.

    • LostInUnderland

      What is stopping men from going in to women’s bathroom now?

      • If you are going to use as an argument for why trans people can go into a bathroom of their choose, than its completely sunk.

        Lets think about that.

        So if we should make murder legal because people will murder anyways, do we legalize murder? No. Because murder is a crime and regardless of who violates it or not, the crime must be enforced. If murder were to become legal, then everyone would have the incentive to, well, murder.

        Do we allow a man who identifies as a woman (but really isn’t) enter the woman’s bathroom, simply because (some) men will enter the woman’s bathroom anyways? No. Because men should not enter the woman’s bathroom, its a law, and regardless of whether some people violate that law, it must still be enforced. If allowing men to enter the woman’s bathroom became legal, then all men would have the incentive to, well, go in the woman’s bathroom.

        And that’s what it is, if a person identifies as a woman, while he is biologically a man, then he is a man, vice versa. Its only delusion to think otherwise, and by no means should we let this ‘identity confusion’ problem among people today, let woman enter men’s bathrooms and men enter woman’s bathrooms.

        • LostInUnderland

          I’m not using the “they will do it anyway” argument. My view is that if men are likely to run into other men in a bathroom, they are less likely to consider the bathroom a place where women are vulnerable.

          • None

            Listen, people don’t like to poop and pee alongside the opposite sex. They also don’t like to disrobe in front of the opposite sex.

            It comes down to that. Don’t bother trying to force it.

          • LostInUnderland

            I get that. However, I think our current set up is… less than ideal. There is certainly room for improvement. I think that trying to point out that it could be better makes me sound as though I am attacking how things are. Personally, I think all bathrooms should be single stall. I think (and the comments seem to support this) that women’s bathrooms are somewhat fetishized. If gendered bathrooms did not exist, I think that bathrooms would cease to be seen as some kind of sacrosanct place. If men and women regularly ran into each other in multi-stall bathrooms that had private stalls, they would not be considered a place where women were vulnerable any more than a restaurant or doctor’s waiting area. The bathroom would no longer be a private, taboo place. Therefore, no one would try to get into bathrooms or film people in the bathrooms because they were as likely to find men in there as women.

            TLDR: Yes, and I do not want to force it, but I do think we as a culture need to get over our restroom phobias.

          • Lisa

            A guy was recently arrested at a JCPenneys at the Staten Island Mall for filming a woman undressing in the fitting room. I tend to shop later on weekend nights where there’s not an attendant on duty. The guy is not trans, but it does illustrate the problems of allowing a biological male into restrooms and fitting rooms

            I’m probably going to stop using fitting rooms altogether and take clothes home to try them on. Women already incur expenses and inconvencies. I’m all for transgender rights but I’m sick of having to do more to accomodate men. I hate going to the fucking mall to begin with. . Now I have to do it twice because the law is going to allow men into fitting rooms? I”m all for inclusion, but where do women’s rights fit in?

          • Lisa

            A guy was recently arrested at a JCPenneys at the Staten Island Mall for filming a woman undressing in the fitting room. I tend to shop later on weekend nights where there’s not an attendant on duty. The guy is not trans, but it does illustrate the problems of allowing a biological male into restrooms and fitting rooms

            I’m probably going to stop using fitting rooms altogether and take clothes home to try them on. Women already incur expenses and inconvencies. I’m all for transgender rights but I’m sick of having to do more to accomodate men. I hate going to the fucking mall to begin with. . Now I have to do it twice because the law is going to allow men into fitting rooms? I”m all for inclusion, but where do women’s rights fit in?

          • Well, that is essentially what you were saying. Now you state that because other men are in a bathroom alongside women, the chance for vulnerability would decrease. Lets think about that for a second.

            Have you ever heard of gang rape? Now, say hypothetically men and women can be in the same bathroom, do you think the chances of sexual harassment and rape would decrease? No, instead I think it would only be an incentive for men to enter into those situations. It would increase the temptation to fulfill those drives, and really, if I were a woman, it would only be a cause for me to be scared.

            And not only that, one wouldn’t suspect such sexually offensive activities. So if a man entered the bathroom with malicious intent, one couldn’t suspect him because in this scenario entering a woman’s bathroom would be perfectly acceptable. But if you do suspect anyway, oh you might offend someone…

            The “oh lets let men and women be in the same bathroom because a space with men together would prevent women from being vulnerable” argument falls short, not only because its absurd, but because there are simply to many risks that could endanger the welfare of (innocent) women.

          • JTMB Videos

            in my opinion it is an attempt to define men and women being the same, NO difference NADA zilch nothing different between men and women. It is a result of the feminist movement for equality. They have lost focus and are now pushing that there is no difference between the sexes. The same reason same sex couples insist it is marriage and not s civil union, marriage makes it identical to hetero marriage. the same institution so there must be no difference, the relationship between a woman and woman is not different than between a man and a woman. Of course there are many differences between men and woman and not just the biologically evident differences. being equal does not require that men and women are considered the same, how about “EQUAL, BUT, DIFFERENT” ? differences do NOT make you less or more than the other, just as difference in eye shape or skin color does not make you less or more.

          • You are right. Men and women are biologically different, both equal, but different. If anything I think this issue has been caused by a deterioration of traditional values and the whole ‘tolerance’ movement.

            It wasn’t too long ago when people would have thought this issue to be absurd… but alas, absurdity becomes to new normal…

          • You are right. Men and women are biologically different, both equal, but different. If anything I think this issue has been caused by a deterioration of traditional values and the whole ‘tolerance’ movement.

            It wasn’t too long ago when people would have thought this issue to be absurd… but alas, absurdity becomes to new normal…

          • JTMB Videos

            in my opinion it is an attempt to define men and women being the same, NO difference NADA zilch nothing different between men and women. It is a result of the feminist movement for equality. They have lost focus and are now pushing that there is no difference between the sexes. The same reason same sex couples insist it is marriage and not s civil union, marriage makes it identical to hetero marriage. the same institution so there must be no difference, the relationship between a woman and woman is not different than between a man and a woman. Of course there are many differences between men and woman and not just the biologically evident differences. being equal does not require that men and women are considered the same, how about “EQUAL, BUT, DIFFERENT” ? differences do NOT make you less or more than the other, just as difference in eye shape or skin color does not make you less or more.

        • None

          Well said

        • Isaac Argesmith

          So basically even if it leads to discrimination to a group of people it’s still good for a law to be enforced that encourages it. Remember race segregated bathrooms?

          • Discrimination towards whom? The people who are having identity issues and need to be counseled or those who just want a separate space for privacy purposes?

          • JTMB Videos

            how are they being discriminated against when it comes to using a bathroom? the men use the men’s and women’s use the women’s

          • JTMB Videos

            how are they being discriminated against when it comes to using a bathroom? the men use the men’s and women’s use the women’s

    • J-dawg

      I’ve yet to see someone make a rational case for how the sex of the person in the next stall impacts your privacy.

  • Pingback: Homework for Wednesday, March 30 | Composition II: Media and Identity()

  • Pingback: Homework for Wednesday, March 30 | Composition II: Media and Identity()

  • Laura Hurt

    “Personally, I would prefer another female student find her, as opposed to a potentially intoxicated male.”

    A transgender woman is a woman, not a male, no matter how drunk she is. In one-gender bathrooms, whether they are opened for transgender people or not, will always allow just one gender. Therefore a drunk passed-out woman will be found by another woman.

    The transphobia is big in this one.

    • Jon C.

      Not if it is a man pretending to be transgender but is not.

      • anna kakazu preble

        “pretending” to be transgender? just like how gay people used to “pretend” to be gay, even though many trans folk are getting assualted. That sounds soooooooo intelligent: someone would “pretend” so that they can be targeted and hurt or killed…ugh.

      • Laura Hurt

        If I were you I’d try and find some pictures of transgender men, who according to laws like these are now obligated to be in the same bathroom as your daughter. I bet you anything that with half of them you won’t be able to tell if it’s a cis man or a transgender man.
        In other words: this bill makes it EASIER for men to get into the bathroom with girls, because now all they have to say is shrug apologetically and say ‘so annoying that I am not allowed in the male bathrooms’ and there you go: a MAN in the girls bathroom, who only has to SAY that he is transgender.
        In your scenario you have a guy who has to at least make an effort to appear feminine. In my scenario each and every man can go into a women’s bathroom.
        And of course, that is not even counting that men who harass girls and women are not secure in their masculinity as it is. They certainly are not going to dress up as a woman to get their way.

        • None

          n other words: this bill makes it EASIER for men to get into the
          bathroom with girls, because now all they have to say is shrug
          apologetically and say ‘so annoying that I am not allowed in the male
          bathrooms’ and there you go: a MAN in the girls bathroom, who only has
          to SAY that he is transgender.

          And I don’t know why you are arguing this, since you seem to think that it’s ok if men have full legal access to women’s spaces.

          So why are you complaining? Havent’ you been saying all along that men (should they have internal feelz that they are women) be permitted to use women’s private facilities without question?

    • anna kakazu preble

      I think the self-labelled “voice of reason” created another troll account. My god, these people have no life, but keep repeating points that don’t speak to perspectives outside their own experiential knowledge (I’m pretty sure they haven’t actually conducted anything close to research). It’s like a big black hole devoid of anything but the blind leading the blind.

      • Laura Hurt

        Yeah, despite his name, he is not very reasonable lol…..

    • None

      There are trans women in prison now for the crime of rape.

      • Laura Hurt

        And there are thousands and thousands of cis-men being in jail for rape.

        • None

          The claim is often made that trans women are angels who would never hurt a fly.

          That is lie.

          And I guess it did not occur to you that gender identity laws givr cisman rapists the legal right to be in women’s safe spaces and women can’t kick them out prior to being assaulted lest they be accused of bigotry.

    • None

      This is a trans woman:
      http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/524935201_1280x720.jpg

      She came out a year ago. Still has the beard.

      I assume you are going to argue that she needs the safety of women’s bathrooms and change rooms? That *any* “woman” who looks like her will get beat up if they have to use the men’s room?

      • Laura Hurt

        So because you can find a pic of a transgender woman who has not gone through any changes, who may or may not be going to the women’s bathroom, that makes this whole issue nonsense?

        Right.

        It remains that this is a non-issue. You have been sharing your bathroom with transgender men already, without knowing, and I have been sharing bathrooms with transgender women. 99.99% of incidents in bathrooms do not involve transgender people and to make it out as if it is going to be is ridiculous and baseless.

        • None

          Please explain how it is possible to discern a cisman sexual predator from a bearded burly pre-op trans woman.

          As they enter the woman’s change room.

          How can you tell the predator from the true trans ?

          • Laura Hurt

            So ok, let us assume that transgender men, since they are ‘really women’ should go to female area’s. How are you gonna tell the real transgender men from the cis man who just says he is a transgender man? The exact same scenario. Only now the cis man doesn’t have to make an effort to look female. And guess what? Sexual perverts are in it for the power. Sexual perverts, for the most part, will not dress up as the ‘lesser gender’ because that will take away from their power rush. But in your scenario cis men will be able to walk in any female area, simply by claiming that they are transgender and not welcome in male area’s. You are making it EASIER for perverts AND you are treating a whole group of people like shit in the process/

            Your solution is to treat all transgenders with suspicion, even if they have done nothing wrong, my solution is to treat transgender people with respect, until they are actually doing something wrong.

            I thought the US was all about ‘innocent until proven guilty’?

          • None

            Do you think that natal males who also present as fully male with intact genitals should have the legal right to access women’s safe spaces based on nothing more than the declaration that they feel that they are women ?

            Yes or no.

          • Laura Hurt

            Innocent until proven guilty.

            Treating people with respect.

            That is what I believe in. You have no arguments against my arguments. Your ‘choice’ is an effort to not go into my arguments.

          • None

            So you can’t answer my question. You are essentially arguing that natal males with intact genitalia should have the legal right to perv on girls and women in their safe spaces. BTW, gender nonconforming lesbians exist. They get misgendered all the time. They don’t want natal males in their safe spaces. They don’t want men, with their male bodies, perving on them. It’s that simple.

            Can’t tell a cisman from a trans woman though. And you know this. In WA state it is now legal for men to use women’s facilities:

            A Seattle, Wash. community is in uproar after a man undressed in the women’s locker room at a local pool, seemingly to test a new rule that allows transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender identity, according to King 5 News.

            An unidentified man wearing board shorts walked into the women’s bathroom of Evans Pool, in the heart of Seattle, on Monday evening.

            The women inside the locker room at the time attempted to kick him out, but the guy refused and said “the law has changed and I have the right to be here.

            http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150

            Read the part in bold, bucko. Men, cis or trans, now have the legal right to use women’s facilities in WA state.

            Explain how women are able to tell which of these men are predators and which are not, prior to being assaulted?

          • Laura Hurt

            “gender nonconforming lesbians exist. They get misgendered all the time. ”

            Which is exactly why this whole policing is wrong.

            You know why that guy was there? Because people like you made it such a big story that so many people-whom-it-does-NOT-concern know about it.

            And again: transgender men who are indistinguishable from cis men are in your scenario welcome in women’s area’s. If you’re going to police, you’re going to have to post guards at every restroom in the US and ask to see the genitals.

            How you’re gonna solve the issue with intersex people is the next question then, but hey, we can’t have everything.

            Or we can, hey there’s a wild idea, stop policing and trust people to do the right thing and be decent people, which 99% of the people are.

            Innocent until proven guilty.

          • None

            Which is exactly why this whole policing is wrong.

            No. There are two biological sexes. Biological sex exists. GNC lesbians do not want PEOPLE WITH PENISES in their safe spaces.

            It’s that simple.

          • Laura Hurt

            Science does not agree with you.
            First of all, there are intersex people, what we used to call hermaphrodites. They have male and female characteristics and can have sexual parts of either or both. How are you going to choose where to put them?

            You keep ignoring what I am telling you about transgender men coming in female spaces.

            If you insist that people should go where their genitals send them, you insist that transgender men are going to have to go to female spaces.
            Look up some pics of transgender men. There are transgender men who are indistinguishable from cis men. In other words: cis men can come in female spaces, claim they are transgender men.

            In your scenario it is EASIER for cis men to pretend to be something they are not, because they don’t have to make an effort to look feminine.

          • None

            Intersex is not trans. Stop trying to conflate the two. Intersex is a genetic of developmental defect. And an intersex with XXY, for example, is still a male. And intersex folks have this to say on the subject:

            People who identify as transgender or transsexual are usually people who are born with typical male or female anatomies but feel as though they’ve been born into the “wrong body.” For example, a person who identifies as transgender or transsexual may have typical female anatomy but feel like a male and seek to become male by taking hormones or electing to have sex reassignment surgeries.

            People who have intersex conditions have anatomy that is not considered typically male or female. Most people with intersex conditions come to medical attention because doctors or parents notice something unusual about their bodies. In contrast, people who are transgendered have an internal experience of gender identity that is different from most people.

            Many people confuse transgender and transsexual people with people with intersex conditions because they see two groups of people who would like to choose their own gender identity and sometimes those choices require hormonal treatments and/or surgery. These are similarities. It’s also true, albeit rare, that some people who have intersex conditions also decide to change genders at some point in their life, so some people with intersex conditions might also identify themselves as transgender or transsexual.

            In spite of these similarities, these two groups should not be and cannot be thought of as one. The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems.

            It’s also important to understand the differences between these two groups because in spite of some similarities they face many different struggles, including different forms of discrimination. The differences between transgender and transsexual and intersex have been understood by lawmakers in countries such as Australia where lawmakers have publicly acknowledged that people with intersex conditions have distinct needs from people who identify as transgender or transsexual.

            http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

            You keep ignoring what I am telling you about transgender men coming in female spaces.

            Yes i am because you are basically arguing that men, all men, should have the legal right to access women’s safe spaces based on nothing more than the declaration that they feel that they are women. You are then trying to justify that these men have the right to use women’s safe spaces because some women look masculine.

            So, I ask you, since you think that masculine looking women and natal born males with intact penises should all have the right to use any facility that they choose, then why not make everything unisex? Are you in favour of unisex phys ed at high school? Force the girls to change and shower alongside the boys? Any girl who refuses to is a bigot? How about putting pre-op trans men in male prisons, is that something you’d like to see, since apparently genitals don’t matter?

          • None

            You know why that guy was there? Because people like you made it such a
            big story that so many people-whom-it-does-NOT-concern know about it.

            Can you prove that that person was a guy? no, you can’t Thats the whole point. The person had a penis and looked like a man but how can you prove it if his INTERNAL GENDER IDENTITY = woman.

            Then ‘he’ or ‘she’ has the legal right to enter women’s bathrooms, changerooms, locker rooms and even prisons, based on nothing more than his word that he feels that he is a woman. And women, many of them rape victims, are just supposed to ‘suck it up’ right, and not misgender this person, because that makes them bigots. No, they will just have to wait until *after* he films them peeing, or rapes them.

            You keep talking about respect, yet you only seem to care about the rights of men who say that they are women than you do about the actual fears of real women and girls.

          • Laura Hurt

            You keep ignoring what I said about transgender men being welcome in female spaces.

            Your scenario makes it EASIER for cis men to go into a female space, because they only have to say that they are transgender, they don’t have to make an effort to be feminine.

          • None

            yeah because the fact that some women look masculine doesn’t justify letting natal males with intact genitalia into women’s spaces, now does it?

            you keep trying to shift to ‘but what about the trans men’ which is a red herring

            what I care about is your assertion that men, who merely declare that they are women, should be entitled to use women’s spaces without question

            So, please, I still want to know, if genitals do *not* matter..

            Then are you in favour of putting pre-op trans men into male prisons?
            Are you in favour of making all facilities – change rooms etc unisex?
            Forcing girls to shower with the boys in high school?

          • Laura Hurt

            Your argument is the red herring one.

            http://mashable.com/2015/04/15/aydian-dowling-mens-health/#LyTSsUTtUSqF

            This is a transgender man. He would be welcome in women’s spaces.

            Good luck with discerning him from cis men.

            This is not a ‘masculine looking woman’. If you’d meet him on the street, you would think it was a man.

          • None

            Nope, not a red herring because I am not talking about what you are talking about.

            I am talking ONLY about laws which permit natal males (with intact penises and who do not transition or even put on a wig), based on INTERNAL GENDER IDENTITY, the legal right to access women’s only facilities.

            Do you support that or don’t you?

          • Laura Hurt

            Lol. No, you’re certainly not talking about what I am talking about.

            Hell, you don’t even KNOW what I am talking about because you are unwilling to listen.

            So, I am quite done with this ‘discussion’.

          • None

            I read your comments and you are being dishonest. And yeah, I think that if someone passes 120% they have the right to use the bathroom that corresponds with how they look. But, the reason for these laws to ‘protect’ trans women is that trans women who will not pass will get beaten up if they use the men’s room. Hence the push to permit trans women who internally identify as women the legal right to use women’s safe spaces whenever they choose, women’s rights be damned. Regardless of whether they pass or not. Regardless of whether or not they have intact penises.

            In other words: this bill makes it EASIER for men to get into the bathroom with girls, because now all they have to say is shrug apologetically and say ‘so annoying that I am not allowed in the male bathrooms’ and there you go: a MAN in the girls bathroom, who only has
            to SAY that he is transgender.

            And I don’t know why you are arguing this, since you seem to think that it’s ok if men have full legal access to women’s spaces.

            So why are you complaining? Havent’ you been saying all along that men (should they have internal feelz that they are women) be permitted to use women’s private facilities without question?

          • None

            Your scenario makes it EASIER for cis men to go into a female space,
            because they only have to say that they are transgender, they don’t have
            to make an effort to be feminine.

            And I am not talking about that law, the birth certificate one.

            I am talking specifically about laws that let men use women’s bathrooms, showers and change rooms based on nothing more than their declaration that they are reallly really women on the inside!

            That sounds like a loophole that is ripe for abuse, doesn’t it? Or do you think that women who notice this are bigots?

          • None

            Yeah. Women and girls should definitely not have the right to feel safe or comfortable in their safe spaces or to reduce risk. No, what matters is that a dude in a wig (or no wig in some cases) feel comfortable in women’s safe spaces. And hey, the women will be fine, AFTER they are assulted, because F preventing assault in the first place amirite?

            As for bathroom safety, this:

            http://www.ci.bellevue.wa.us/11824.htm

            On January 18, at approximately 1:00 p.m., Bellevue Police responded to a call at Bellevue College where a suspect was being detained by security. A female was in a restroom with her two friends when one observed an smart phone tipped towards her from underneath the adjoining bathroom stall.

            The victim told her friends to leave with her and, once outside, she told them what she had seen — not only the camera, but what appeared to be a man wearing a pink wig (which she saw through the crack in the stall door while washing her hands).

            One of the victims went to alert security while the other two waited for the suspect to exit the bathroom. The two women saw the man in the pink wig, wearing sunglasses, exit the restroom and head toward a car. Security followed the suspect to the car where he removed the wig and glasses and put on a baseball hat.

            The suspect was positively identified by the witness and arrested by Bellevue Police. Police brought the suspect in for questioning and obtained a full confession. Officers recovered the wig and glasses along with one iPhone from the suspect’s car, which was impounded by BPD.

            A warrant was obtained for the iPhone, and photos were located of four total women in bathroom stalls with their pants down. A Bellevue detective used the GPS coordinates from the iPhone to determine the exact locations of where the photos were taken. Three of them were the victims at Bellevue College, and the fourth was at a location in Seattle.

            In fact, a lot of it is going to come down to he said/she said.

            The guy’s attorney tried to get the charges dismissed on the grounds that authorities can’t prove the women didn’t consent to being filmed in the bathroom! “We don’t know if they (the women) gave consent,” Simons told the judge. “People do odd things.”

            http://www.lowellsun.com/breakingnews/ci_28206378/attorney-defense-cant-prove-women-did-not-consent

            More bathroom peepers. In fact, there are entire fetish groups devoted to filming women while they pee etc.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-man-charged-with-peeping-after-he-was-discovered-in-womens-restroom-stall/2015/11/17/2cb8f1ec-8d68-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-looking-for-two-time-womens-room-peeper/2015/10/14/9754c660-729d-11e5-9cbb-790369643cf9_story.html

            And trans people, some of them, will not be satisfied with gender neutral showers and bathrooms. They must use the ladies room:

            Neutral Bathroom (VIDEO)

            A few dozen student and adult supporters turned out Friday night from the surrounding area to support transgender student Lila Perry.
            lila perry rally

            The protesters want more money and effort to organizations that promote transgender students.

            Lila Perry made national news after she started using the girls locker room at rural Hillsboro high school.
            The school had set aside a gender neutral bathroom for the student’s use.

            TGP reporter Adam Sharp attended the event and had a chance to speak with student Lila Perry.
            Perry says she was asked to use a gender neutral bathroom but that it was “dehumanizing” and that’s why he started using the girls lockeroom and bathroom.

            Lila Perry: I’m fighting for transgender rights not just for me but for all transgender students across the state… I used the girls restroom and people kind of lost it.

            Adam Sharp: And there were reports that there was an extra bathroom made available to you. Is that correct?

            Lila Perry: It was. But it’s very dehumanizing to be reduced to just “gender neutral” to where I feel like they’re just going to take all of us and put us in our own bathroom which I don’t like.

            http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/hillsboro-trans-student-lila-perry-says-its-dehumanizing-to-use-gender-neutral-bathroom-video/

            Trans women are entitled to female sex only spaces. Why, because those spaces belong to them. Women don’t have a say, nor should they, as they are just bigots and all, worrying about ‘safety’. Pfft.

          • None

            Yes, these rape victims, according to you (don’t mistrust men in women’s bathrooms, intead, accuse nervous women of bigotry), need to suck it up, as any man in a wig should absolutley have the legal right to entire women’s only facilities;

            A rape victim says:

            I am not saying that transgender people are predators. Not by a long shot. What I am saying is that there are countless deviant men in this world who will pretend to be transgender as a means of gaining access to the people they want to exploit, namely women and children. It already happens.

            Are these traumatized women supposed to magically tell which men in wigs are predators and which are not? I guess the women will know which men are predators and which are not *after* they have been assaulted. Sounds fair, yeah?

            Very progressive though, so called ‘feminist’ dismissing the very real concerns of trauamtized rape victims.

            http://dailysignal.com/2016/01/25/sexual-assault-victims-speak-out-against-washingtons-transgender-bathroom-policies/

          • anna kakazu preble

            “countless” – and yet you’ve dug up only – what, 2 or 3 examples? I’m not sure you’re argument is as well stated as you like to think.

          • None

            So you are telling me that you think it is acceptable if a few women are raped per year in women only safe spaces because you want to protect folks with penises.

            Some feminist you are. I bet you also blamed the Cologne rapes on the victims.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I said that you did not word your position very concisely to match the articles you’ve provided to back them up. That doesn’t mean I advocate intimate violence.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I guess I’m only one of the “few women” on this board who have indicated you’re dropping a lot of red herring arguments here.

          • None

            Btw, nice empathy you are showing for the rape victims in that article who are justifiably concerned.

            You are no feminist.

          • anna kakazu preble

            LOL

          • None

            Thanks for proving my point.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Oh,dear Dave, I laughed because you are addicted to inference. It doesn’t prove anything. At all. Sexual violence will continue largely unabated in this country.

          • None

            That is what I believe in. You have no arguments against my arguments. Your ‘choice’ is an effort to not go into my arguments.

            Treat everyone with respect but women and girls who want to reduce their risks of getting perved on in the shower?

            Some feminist you are.

          • J-dawg

            Sex-segregated public restrooms being women’s “safe” spaces is a fallacy.

          • None

            As for your assertion that a sexual deviant would not try to gain access to women’s safe spaces to perv on them, you’d be wrong. Very very very wrong. You are one naive child.

            Transgender woman who raped girl before transition sent to male prison

            Ayrton, 34, was found guilty on Friday of raping a 15-year-old girl in the autumn of 2004. The week-long trial at Portsmouth crown court heard that she had attempted to kill herself last summer.

            http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/08/transgender-woman-raped-girl-before-transition-male-prison-davina-ayrton

            Or this:

            Richard Masbruch brutally raped and tortured a Fresno woman in 1991.
            Today, in a case that may be the first of its kind, he lives in a women’s prison.

            http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-331532

            Or this:

            Male Transgender sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for assault on woman in women’s restroom:

            “Hagan was convicted in July of punching a fellow bar patron in the mouth. The victim, 40-year-old Cheryl Partsch, lost five teeth and could end up paying as much as $60,000 in medical bills.

            “Hagan was accused of battering Partsch because she questioned his presence in the women’s restroom.”

            http://www.sptimes.com/News/92599/Pasco/Cross_dressing_man_se.shtml

            Definitely a woman’s prison for this trans woman:

            Hong Kong -” A transvestite man caught dressed as a nurse in the female washroom at a Hong Kong public hospital has been jailed, a news report said Thursday.

            Chung Kai-lun, 29, was found wearing women’s clothes and a surgical mask in the hospital toilet less than a year after being given a suspended sentence for dressing as a schoolgirl in a school canteen.”

            “”I wanted to see women naked,” he was quoted as telling investigators. “Dressing up as a woman was a step to do that.

            http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2003/11/27/Cross-dresser-arrested-in-bath-house/UPI-63871069941991/

            And these, they should all be sent to women’s prisons. For their safety.

            GREENSBURG, Pa. — “A 48-year-old man allegedly dressed as a woman and went into a girls’ locker room at Greensburg Salem High School, ”

            http://www.wtae.com/r/3716265/detail.html

            Purdue police investigate report of

            man taking photographs in

            women’s restroom

            WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. -” Purdue University police are

            investigating a reported incident in which a man dressed as

            a woman was seen taking photographs under the wall of a

            women’s bathroom stall in Yue-Kong Pao Hall of Visual and

            Performing Arts.

            The incident was reported to police about 3:30 p.m. Monday

            (March 31).

            According to a police report, a woman was in a bathroom

            stall on the third floor of the building and saw a hand

            holding a blue flip-phone camera beneath the door. She left

            the restroom and then returned to confront the person. At

            that point, she realized the person was a man dressed as a

            woman.”

            http://www.purdue.edu/police/pdf/2006/033108.pdf

            2009 “Richard Rendler, 60, of San Jose, a registered sex offender, found that out on Friday in Campbell, when he was arrested at the PruneYard Shopping Center on misdemeanor loitering charges. Campbell Police Sgt. Dave Carmichael said Rendler was arrested after having been caught in the womens’ restroom of an unnamed store for “several minutes.”

            Police were tipped off to Rendler’s whereabouts shortly before noon on Friday, when a witness called authorities to say a man was getting out of his car wearing fake breasts and a wig and carrying a purse. The witness saw the man near a bank and thought it was a little “weird” to see a man wearing what seemed to be a disguise, Carmichael said.”

            http://www.mercurynews.com/crime/ci_11558044

            According to the Megan’s Law Web site, Render has been previously arrested on charges of child molestation and indecent exposure.”

            http://www.romenews-tribune.com/view/full_story/6822843/article-Rome-man-arrested-in-women’s-bathroom-at-Calhoun-Walmart?instance=home_Most_popular 2010- Georgia –Rome man arrested in women’s bathroom at Calhoun Walmart

            by Calhoun Times

            “A Rome man was released on bond after being arrested for allegedly taking his clothes off in front of children in the women’s restroom of Walmart in Calhoun. Police officers arrived to find Burnes wearing a dark woman’s suit including a short skirt and jacket, black leather coat, black high heals, red nail polish, green eye shadow and women’s jewelry. According to the witness, Burnes had been in the women’s section of the store with his skirt “kicked up showing his white girdle and dark thong underwear.”

            A man has been arrested in Hokkaido for putting on some make-up and a blouse and hanging out in a women’s public toilet:

            “Tsukasa Okazaki, 45, the banker from Monbetsu, Hokkaido, was arrested for trespassing. He admits to the allegations.

            “I wanted people to see me as some sort of weirdo,” he told the police.

          • J-dawg

            I asserted no such thing, and am neither naïve or a child. Your own list makes my point for me.

          • None

            My list makes the point that the laws that you support will only make it *easier* for such men to perv on women.

          • J-dawg

            False. It’s easier for men posing as transgender in women’s bathrooms if there are laws requiring trans men to use women’s restrooms. I would prefer unsegregated restrooms, as they are likely the safest, simplest and least discriminatory option.

          • None

            Sex segregation isn’t discriminatory.

            Penises in one place, vaginas in the other.

          • None

            As for your assertion that a sexual deviant would not try to gain access to women’s safe spaces to perv on them, you’d be wrong. Very very very wrong. You are one naive child.

            Transgender woman who raped girl before transition sent to male prison

            Ayrton, 34, was found guilty on Friday of raping a 15-year-old girl in the autumn of 2004. The week-long trial at Portsmouth crown court heard that she had attempted to kill herself last summer.

            http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/08/transgender-woman-raped-girl-before-transition-male-prison-davina-ayrton

            Or this:

            Richard Masbruch brutally raped and tortured a Fresno woman in 1991.
            Today, in a case that may be the first of its kind, he lives in a women’s prison.

            http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-331532

            Or this:

            Male Transgender sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for assault on woman in women’s restroom:

            “Hagan was convicted in July of punching a fellow bar patron in the mouth. The victim, 40-year-old Cheryl Partsch, lost five teeth and could end up paying as much as $60,000 in medical bills.

            “Hagan was accused of battering Partsch because she questioned his presence in the women’s restroom.”

            http://www.sptimes.com/News/92599/Pasco/Cross_dressing_man_se.shtml

            Definitely a woman’s prison for this trans woman:

            Hong Kong -” A transvestite man caught dressed as a nurse in the female washroom at a Hong Kong public hospital has been jailed, a news report said Thursday.

            Chung Kai-lun, 29, was found wearing women’s clothes and a surgical mask in the hospital toilet less than a year after being given a suspended sentence for dressing as a schoolgirl in a school canteen.”

            “”I wanted to see women naked,” he was quoted as telling investigators. “Dressing up as a woman was a step to do that.

            http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2003/11/27/Cross-dresser-arrested-in-bath-house/UPI-63871069941991/

            And these, they should all be sent to women’s prisons. For their safety.

            GREENSBURG, Pa. — “A 48-year-old man allegedly dressed as a woman and went into a girls’ locker room at Greensburg Salem High School, ”

            http://www.wtae.com/r/3716265/detail.html

            Purdue police investigate report of

            man taking photographs in

            women’s restroom

            WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. -” Purdue University police are

            investigating a reported incident in which a man dressed as

            a woman was seen taking photographs under the wall of a

            women’s bathroom stall in Yue-Kong Pao Hall of Visual and

            Performing Arts.

            The incident was reported to police about 3:30 p.m. Monday

            (March 31).

            According to a police report, a woman was in a bathroom

            stall on the third floor of the building and saw a hand

            holding a blue flip-phone camera beneath the door. She left

            the restroom and then returned to confront the person. At

            that point, she realized the person was a man dressed as a

            woman.”

            http://www.purdue.edu/police/pdf/2006/033108.pdf

            2009 “Richard Rendler, 60, of San Jose, a registered sex offender, found that out on Friday in Campbell, when he was arrested at the PruneYard Shopping Center on misdemeanor loitering charges. Campbell Police Sgt. Dave Carmichael said Rendler was arrested after having been caught in the womens’ restroom of an unnamed store for “several minutes.”

            Police were tipped off to Rendler’s whereabouts shortly before noon on Friday, when a witness called authorities to say a man was getting out of his car wearing fake breasts and a wig and carrying a purse. The witness saw the man near a bank and thought it was a little “weird” to see a man wearing what seemed to be a disguise, Carmichael said.”

            http://www.mercurynews.com/crime/ci_11558044

            According to the Megan’s Law Web site, Render has been previously arrested on charges of child molestation and indecent exposure.”

            http://www.romenews-tribune.com/view/full_story/6822843/article-Rome-man-arrested-in-women’s-bathroom-at-Calhoun-Walmart?instance=home_Most_popular 2010- Georgia –Rome man arrested in women’s bathroom at Calhoun Walmart

            by Calhoun Times

            “A Rome man was released on bond after being arrested for allegedly taking his clothes off in front of children in the women’s restroom of Walmart in Calhoun. Police officers arrived to find Burnes wearing a dark woman’s suit including a short skirt and jacket, black leather coat, black high heals, red nail polish, green eye shadow and women’s jewelry. According to the witness, Burnes had been in the women’s section of the store with his skirt “kicked up showing his white girdle and dark thong underwear.”

            A man has been arrested in Hokkaido for putting on some make-up and a blouse and hanging out in a women’s public toilet:

            “Tsukasa Okazaki, 45, the banker from Monbetsu, Hokkaido, was arrested for trespassing. He admits to the allegations.

            “I wanted people to see me as some sort of weirdo,” he told the police.

        • None

          Oh, and this TW is arguing on Twitter that women should not freak out if they see her bearded burly ultra manly self in the woman’s loo.

    • J-dawg

      I believe the topic was unisex bathrooms, not trans women. Still, this entire argument that men are nothing more than crazed sex beasts waiting for an opportunity to pounce is more than a little misandrist (and sexist in general, since it turns women into weak, helpless victims in need of protection).

  • Marissa Anne

    First, I’m glad that your blog post was written. There is no benefit to having legitimate contrary opinions suppressed: if we don’t know what they are, we can’t address them.

    As a transgender individual, let me try to address your points one at a time, and then I’ll summarize with a general viewpoint.

    You begin by constraining your argument to the issue of community bathrooms rather than single stall bathrooms. I’m not precisely sure why the constraint, but let me take on the issue of community since you brought it up. Transgender people have been until recently largely invisible and when not, disproportionately discriminated-against members of the community. It is indisputable that in the last ten years, there has been a ‘tipping-point’ of greater awareness of transgender people and their unique challenges by the ‘cisgender’ members of our community. Moreover, the transgender community itself has seen an explosion of diversity to include a wide spectrum of identities between the binary male and female identities. This necessarily has increased the population of people not identifying as a cisgender binary person. It is also necessarily driving increased demand for gender-neutral facilities. There are simply more people needing safe bathroom facilities. What has not changed is the level of safety for transgender people in the community: in 2015, it only took until August to hit an historic high for murders of transgender people in the U.S. The new awareness of transgender issues is, in my opinion, making us more visible targets. The inclusion of identities beyond the gender binary is going to place more people at risk. Safety needs to be a priority.

    In your second paragraph, you refer to the push for gender-neutral bathrooms as a “…new and popular form of campus activism.” To suggest that the push for gender-neutral bathrooms is limited to campus activism ignores the fact that this issue transcends campus life. Are campuses predisposed to pushing the social envelope? Is the campus a well-established source of social innovation and activism? This is historically been true well before you and I were born and will likely continue to be true. In a sense, your comments here really don’t establish any evidence of significant newness.

    In your third paragraph, you suggest that the activism around gender-neutral bathrooms is being done to be more inclusive. I’m not sure if you’re suggesting this is a problem or not. If you’re suggesting that some students join popular causes for reasons other than solving the problems directly related to the cause, that’s possible but largely irrelevant as long as they believe the cause itself to be just. Then you state your main thesis: that a movement to drop “gender segregation” may prove “problematic”. My short answer is your use of the term gender segregation is still constrained to a biological binary sex definition and not gender, and I’ll address that in more detail later. Let me state my own thesis: any segregation by gender that exists, exists only because of social constructs put in place based on historical moral systems that inexorably change over time. Further, I suggest that the campus is a well-established source of social innovation that will change these systems. The activism is happening necessarily and in the right places as it always has.

    You then address the issue of how many transgender people there are. This appears to be an attempt to suggest that the population may be so low that our needs can be safely ignored. This is an unethical position. We do not value a person’s right to life, liberty, and safety based on the percentage they represent in the population. If we are to have any rights, they must be rights for all of the community.

    Your next paragraph confirms my suspicion. You argue that a school should only make decisions where the majority of the campus community benefits. This argument is problematic. Who, specifically, is a majority on your campus? Male identified binaries? Female identified binaries? White male identified binaries? Black male identified binaries? U.S. born white male identified binaries? The ability for us to begin segmenting the population based on various categorizations is limitless. So what is a majority? Once you’ve found a majority, do we subordinate the rights of the minority to them? Historically we’ve done so at great social cost – at one point where only white males were allowed to vote. We chose to change that and today we wouldn’t question those decisions. However, many did at the time just as we’re having this conversation. Social change is a funny thing: we’re either behind, spot-on, or ahead of the curve. We all choose our place, but history favors those ahead of the curve.

    Then you touch on the comparative discomfort of cisgender people to that of transgender people in the restroom. Let me explain why the comparison doesn’t hold up. Transgender people’s discomfort is one of an evidence-supported fear of abuse, assault, and in some cases, death. A cisgender person’s fear in a bathroom is what? A fear of assault and rape unsupported by evidence. Supported only by the politics of what some call ‘The Bathroom Problem”. Transgender persons’ fears can be overcome by a welcoming label on a door. Cisgender person’s fears can be overcome by rational thought. Neither are that expensive.

    You support your argument by describing the opportunity for privacy to be violated. You talk about violations in stalls – is this happening today? Are there cisgender people co-mingling in bathroom stalls on campus? Is this non-consensual behavior? We have laws to deal with that: it’s sexual assault. The current bathroom constructs unfortunately don’t prevent this. A rapist will not pay attention to the sign on the door. Are there no co-ed spaces in dorms on campuses? How do they manage those issues today? We’re in your bathrooms today whether you like it or not. We’re just scared because it doesn’t matter which one we choose, we’re under threat because there’s no explicit welcome. If I use the men’s as per my gender assigned at birth, and I’m presenting as a woman, how is that going to go over? And if I use the women’s? I hope at this point you’re seeing that this problem isn’t being solved by your position.

    As you wind up your thesis, you bring up a fear of rape. This is a commonly used tactic for opponents of gender-neutral bathrooms that is unsupported in reality. First, there’s no known example of rape by a transperson of a cisgender person in a bathroom. Even if there was, the fact that they’re transgender is irrelevant: they’re a rapist. Rapists don’t play by the rules and limit themselves according to signs on a door. And your argument effectively condemns and paints male college students as uncontrollable rapists. I’m not sure your peers would agree with you.

    You state that the danger with gender-neutral bathrooms is potential for more sexual assault and harassment. In what way? A person sexually assaulting or harassing another is not going to limit their behavior to the bathroom. If we were to take your concern seriously, then the appropriate action would be to ban any activity where there is a mix of genders and alcohol on campus. Can you please write a blog post in support of that plan? I would like to read the comments section.

    Then you move to emphasizing the emotional, physiological (really?), and physical (didn’t you just say that?) stress that could be put on cisgender individuals and you state (as you say subjectively) that it is larger than the benefits to transgender people. Respectfully, I disagree that any discomfort from ill-informed cisgender people is greater than the very real threat of transgender people getting beat up, verbally abused, and killed. I also disagree with your contention that opposing gender-neutral bathrooms is not transphobic. It is the epitome of transphobia as it stems directly from unfounded fears of transpeople as you’ve already laid out in your thesis. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It just means you need more information to overcome your fear, just as the fear of skydiving can be addressed through education of how the process works. I don’t believe you’re hateful. I don’t get that from your tone. I do believe you need more information and perhaps experience with transpeople who have lived experiences to share.

    You conclude with an argument about trade-offs. I agree. I believe we need to trade-off the uneducated and unfounded fears of some parts of our community to gain the safety and security of others. I know this can be done because there are thousands of examples of gender-neutral bathrooms all over the world. This is not new. It’s just new to some people. No new raping has spread because of it either.

    Summary

    People often equate genitalia with gender. The American Psychological Association defines sex as referring to a person’s biological status. Gender is a social construct defined by society, and gender identity is a social construct defined by individuals themselves. One may have a penis or a vagina or a variation of the two defined as intersex: that is a biological fact. What is a purely social construct is how we label or identify and behave according to those biological facts. Our responses are entirely within our capability to control. It is also a social imperative for us to control our behavior within the standards expected by society (i.e., be ethical).

    Let me restate that again: It is an ethical and social imperative for us to control our behavior. This means you have to own your sh*t, be responsible, and don’t rape.

    Ethics are defined by our society and these standards shift continuously. What we are experiencing is a recognition that we need to be individually responsible for our own actions. We recognize that it is not ethical to tolerate the threats, abuse, assault, and murder of transpeople who currently live in fear when they simply need to pee. We recognize that modified bathroom stalls are an easily controllable contribution to the greater solution. This is not an unreasonable ask of the cisgender community given the risks.

    The size of the transgender community is and will expand now that the historical identification of gender as a choice of two binaries linked to biological sex no longer exists. We are in a time where there is an incredible and expanding diversity of gender identities. This will require everyone to reconsider how we ‘segregate genders’ where a gender binary does not exist. This is the reason we have to address the bathroom issue for the last time and move on.

    • None

      Women don’t have the right to safe spaces of their own because trans women are more oppressed.
      Rape victims need to stfu, right?

      • anna kakazu preble

        oh, sure, because the US has such a great track record already. Please stop with the red herring arguments.

        • None

          Last I checked you don’t speak for all women.

          • anna kakazu preble

            neither do you. I’m just saying I see right through what YOU’RE saying.

          • None

            Yeah. I said the horrible misogynist thing that women have the right to shower and change without having to deal with male bodies and PEENS in their midst.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I didn’t even SEE that comment. remember? I’m confoooooooooosed

    • ssybesma

      We need to at least maintain the current choices (forever) and not remove them. If alternate gender individuals want their own third community restroom, I can support that as long as the current two choices are left in place. If by creating a third choice that is somehow interpreted as being unfair or hurts someone’s feelings and bitching starts about reducing restroom choices to only one in order to ‘correct’ the ‘unfairness’, that’s the time to cut off discussion and get rid of the third restroom and return back to two with this subject hopefully never to be seriously brought up again.

    • BrianSheller

      Dude, you just unwound every single transgender claim there is:

      ‘Gender is a social construct defined by society, and gender identity is a social construct defined by individuals themselves.’

      If that’s true, then you’re not ‘trans’ anything, you’re just a rebel (in a dress) without a cause.
      You did all that typing to unwind it all by acknowledging that you’re just a man wanting to do things that women (today) typically do.

      You can play dress up all day, no one cares. And since you’ve acknowledged that that’s all it is, can we all move on?

      • Marissa Anne

        On the outside chance that you’re not just a man with an inflated sense of privilege trolling transpeople (what are the odds?!!), let me restate in simpler terms:

        Terms like woman, man, gay, straight, African, Hispanic, Chinese are labels defined by society. The members of these groups are not determined by an independently observable and objective test. They are determined by the rest of society. Race, as an example, is not founded in genetics but rather a label assigned by others in society. You can be a member of that group if others with status identify you as such.

        However, female and male are genetic definitions that can be determined by an independent and objective test: you are either XX or XY, or a genetic variant with another label. You can’t be a part of that group simply by wishing it to be true.

        Transpeople are increasingly accepted as members of their self-identified social group: woman, man, or any number of non-binary identities in between. This is as it should be.

        The bathroom stalls don’t say “male”, or “female”, implying a genetic marker. They say, “Men” and “Women”. Now, for those identifying as such, and with society increasingly and inexorably accepting self-identity, this means that as a member of a group called “Women”, I have the moral right to use those facilities. However, I do recognize that simply having the moral right does not make me welcome. Hence the need to push societal acceptance along a little faster as is happening now and reject this blog poster’s position. It’s a position entrenched in outdated definitions of Man and Woman. That ship has sailed, for those who missed the boarding call.

        So now that you know the difference between man, woman, male, and female (what ARE they teaching in schools today anyway?), hopefully you’ll have some newfound insight into why your comment makes no sense.

        • BrianSheller

          The definition of man is ‘an adult male’.
          The definition of woman is ‘an adult female.’

          So that kinda takes the wind out of your entire post.

          You’ve done it to yourself twice now. You type such that you go about invalidating everything you’re trying to advance. It seems to be because you’re completely full of shit.

          You should stop posting, it’s really making a further mockery of the trans-cult narrative.

          Also, how is a white guy parading around as a woman going to tell me, another white guy, about privilege? Dude, you’re the pure definition of privileged white male. Privileged to such a degree that you can freely choose to imitate a woman (without really understanding the true struggles of growing up and living as a female)

          • None

            Ask them to define ‘woman’ without resorting to gender stereotypes (girls like pink,boys like blue, girls like dolls, boys like trucks) or circular reasoning (i am a woman because I feel that I am)

            They can never do it.

            Also, ‘gender identity’ is unfalsifiable.

          • BrianSheller

            Quite right. The trans-narrative that gets advanced contradicts itself nearly immediately when it starts to define ‘gender’

            Men with mental disorder is all it is, I just wish people had the fortitude to stand up and say so before the idea that it’s a normal (rather than abberant) human outcome is implanted in any more kids’ heads.

          • None

            Now, there are trans people who suffer genuine dysphoria. They are incredibly rare. They feel that their bodies don’t match their brains – which isn’t proof that they have lady brains, rather, it is an attribution error. The fact that the body doesn’t feel ‘right’ does not mean that the brain is female, it just means that something is wired wrong.

            The loudest and rudest ‘trans’ are the autogynphiles. One of the turn-ons is utilizing women’s faciliites:

            https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/2015/05/25/new-scale-for-diagnosing-autogynephilia-is-very-telling/

            Google ‘Stefonknee’ and “cotton ceiling”. These autogynpehiles are perverts who want to force their ‘lady selves’ on women, and they are the driving force behind all of this trans bs.

          • BrianSheller

            The autogynephilia is the truth they seem to want to bury under the idea of dysphoria.

            Then they also seem to sell the dysphoria as though it’s not a disorder either, which is where I find the most concern. I can imagine a future where a significant population of otherwise normal boys and girls going through a turbulent adolescence are sucked into and enveloped by the popular trans narrative being spewed out.

            I don’t remember all this bathroom business being a problem in the two decades prior. A man passing as a woman would use a woman’s restroom, big deal, right? But now that a 17 year old boy can ‘be’ a girl, the trans madness seems to have gone wild. And people really ate up the ‘lady-brain’ narrative too quickly.

            After all these years of working toward equality, now there exists a such thing as lady-brain? …

            I’ve seen that stefonknee madness around, and the whole cotton ceiling business too. Amazing, isn’t it, that a man dressing up as a woman but still being attracted to women views himself as an excluded lesbian and gets upset when the rest of the world calls it like it is?

            I want people to get the help they need, and frankly I don’t have a problem if a man wants to pass as a woman. My chief concern is that their condition is properly classified so they can be treated properly and seen clearly by those they might otherwise influence.

          • None

            Regarding the laws, they are written very vaguely. The law basically states that if someone has the gender identity of woman (this means no SRS, no dressing as a woman, intact male genitalia), that person has the legal right to enter women’s safe spaces – change rooms, bathrooms, domestic violence shelters. That person cannot be questioned, regardless of how they look. This leaves it wide open for abuse, since any pervert or rapist can simply claim that they are a woman to gain access to women’s safe spaces. And, since we will all be trained to not question the presence of a male bodied individual in a woman’s safe space, no eyebrows will be raised if a man enters the woman’s changeroom. And he can hang out in there if he wants, and secretively engage in voyeurism. And women won’t have the right to kick him out, because all he has to do is claim that his internal gender identity is ‘woman’.

            A male bodied person tested this law recently in WA state. This person had the legal right to be there. If xie wanted to be around the girls as they undressed, and to undress in front of them, xie definitely had the right.

            How is anyone supposed to tell which male bodied persons with peens have the internal identity of women and which do not? How can they tell, prior to being perved on, or assaulted, who is the pedator and who is a genuine trans person? Remember, peens are female, and trans women are under no obligation to change a single thing about themselves. They can go on looking like men and packing the equipment:

            http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/524935201_1280x720.jpg
            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/17/today-im-saying-goodbye-to-my-old-self/

            Danielle Muscato identifies as a woman. She needs to use the woman’s loo for her own safety. She has said so on twitter. As you can clearly see from the photo, she will become a victim of violence if she uses a man’s bathroom looking like that!

            http://i.imgur.com/DGHnRex.jpg
            https://twitter.com/daniellemuscato/status/714802570062004227
            https://twitter.com/daniellemuscato/status/719554026233155584
            https://m.facebook.com/comment/replies/?ctoken=10154035574290856_10154035639965856&count=120&pc=1&ft_ent_identifier=10154035574290856&gfid=AQC3V2fWxQc5hLwS
            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154115045619004&set=a.10150095136374004.287398.501474003&type=3
            http://imgur.com/54DhrQD
            Muscato wrote:
            Danielle Muscato wrote:
            Male. Female. Unisex.
            That should solve the problem. Because I am not sharing a public bathroom that allows men in because of way too many experiences that don’t work in the favour of the argument.
            And people who are adamantly against the three bathroom model are illogical and I can’t bother debating with them.

            : Also that doesn’t really answer the question of where trans women who don’t pass should go. For example, if there are three bathrooms as you suggested, I would want to the women’s room, seeing as I’m a woman.
            it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about 1/20 of 1%, discrimination is not acceptable. That’s why anti-discrimination laws *exist,* to protect oppressed minorities from oppressive majorities.

            As it happens there are a lot more trans people than that; the figure you’re referring to is drawn from the number of people who have legally changed their names with the Social Security Administration and changed their government-database gender markers, which is DEFINITELY not all trans people. I have done neither, for example. But as I said it doesn’t even matter what the percentage is, you can’t discriminate against people just because they are in the minority.

            As to what happened in WA state:

            A Seattle, Wash. community is in uproar after a man undressed in the women’s locker room at a local pool, seemingly to test a new rule that allows transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender identity, according to King 5 News.

            An unidentified man wearing board shorts walked into the women’s bathroom of Evans Pool, in the heart of Seattle, on Monday evening.

            The women inside the locker room at the time attempted to kick him out, but the guy refused and said “the law has changed and I have the right to be here.”

            The man was referring to a local rule passed in December that mandates all public restrooms to allow transgender people to use bathroom assigned to their gender identity.

            http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150

            You are smart enough to see the implications of this law. No one will bat an eye when a ‘woman’ like Muscato, with her ladypeen and ladybeard, enters women’s safe spaces. And ‘she’ cannot be kicked out, as that = discrimination. So women, and the girls swim team, have to shut up and take it.

          • BrianSheller

            You’ve laid it out well here. For the laws in WA that allow anyone to use any restroom, we see the same loophole that any predator will. But then on the flipside, a law like we see in NC that seems fair to everyone and only directs public entities on how to segregate their facilities is attacked from every disingenuous angle one might imagine. To see an MtT that passes as a woman rail against the HB2-Part1 as though the law was written with him in mind pains me. It seems to me HB2 was written with the express intent to keep out predators and would have had no effect on individuals who pass as the sex they wish to imitate. But the truth seems buried, once again, under trans-madness.

            The thing that your comment brings to mind next is the way the MtT’s paint all other men as violent beasts.

            Their basis for the restroom activism seems to be that they would encounter violence in men’s rooms so they must invade women’s spaces in order to escape that violence. It seems to me those are baseless claims against men.

            With the MtTs there’s no winning. If I’m a woman who won’t sleep with them I’m a TERF keeping them under a cotton ceiling, if I’m a man then I must be a violent beast who will beat them for being in the restroom with me.

            The trans community is so obviously mentally disordered.

            It’s nice chatting back and forth with someone who seems to have a solid grasp on things.

          • BrianSheller

            You’ve laid it out well here. For the laws in WA that allow anyone to use any restroom, we see the same loophole that any predator will. But then on the flipside, a law like we see in NC that seems fair to everyone and only directs public entities on how to segregate their facilities is attacked from every disingenuous angle one might imagine. To see an MtT that passes as a woman rail against the HB2-Part1 as though the law was written with him in mind pains me. It seems to me HB2 was written with the express intent to keep out predators and would have had no effect on individuals who pass as the sex they wish to imitate. But the truth seems buried, once again, under trans-madness.

            The thing that your comment brings to mind next is the way the MtT’s paint all other men as violent beasts.

            Their basis for the restroom activism seems to be that they would encounter violence in men’s rooms so they must invade women’s spaces in order to escape that violence. It seems to me those are baseless claims against men.

            With the MtTs there’s no winning. If I’m a woman who won’t sleep with them I’m a TERF keeping them under a cotton ceiling, if I’m a man then I must be a violent beast who will beat them for being in the restroom with me.

            The trans community is so obviously mentally disordered.

            It’s nice chatting back and forth with someone who seems to have a solid grasp on things.

          • None

            Yes Brian, you got it. You understand the issue perfectly.

            All men are violent beasts, except trans women, and women are supposed to know which men are really MTT and which are predators just by looking at them, and if they mistake an MTT for a predator they are transphobic bigots!

            This blog post for me really made it clear how much of a mental illness it is:

            https://transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/defining-away-happiness/

          • None

            Yes Brian, you got it. You understand the issue perfectly.

            All men are violent beasts, except trans women, and women are supposed to know which men are really MTT and which are predators just by looking at them, and if they mistake an MTT for a predator they are transphobic bigots!

            This blog post for me really made it clear how much of a mental illness it is:

            https://transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/defining-away-happiness/

          • BrianSheller

            Thanks for sharing the post. I feel for that woman writing.

            It seems to be a recursive depressive disorder that is only fed and fueled by internet access to deeper and darker circles of others sharing the same condition.

            The rabbit hole that these guys get pulled into seems so similar to those suffering from other looping depressive conditions that can never be satisfied by the behavior brought on by the condition itself. Then they play it out like it’s normal and start projecting their disorder on to a younger generation.

            And it’s this normalization of such a disorder of thinking that I worry will be sold to younger and younger individuals by any number of unscrupulous medical professionals, and bought by one well-intentioned parent after the other.

            The idea that an adolescent girl or boy will be fed puberty blockers on account of some unsubstantiated claim such as ‘lady-brain’ or ‘gender-identity’ really eats me up.

          • None

            Yep. And SRS is not, on average, fully successful. In fact, suicide rates remain about the same. It is a mental illness. http://www.sexchangereget.com

            You might also want to check out http://www.4thwavenow.com – the author talks about how transgenderism is harming children.

          • BrianSheller

            I’m familiar with Walt and his frequent posts at the Federalist (which is an odd place to find him)

            The gender critical reddit is also a place I like to keep an eye on. The women there seem to have a lot of man-related hand wringing to sort out separately, but they see the transgender issue for exactly what it is.

            They do a good job of seeking out and sharing trans-madness, and the ‘Peak Trans II’ thread stuck to the top is a fun read any time.

          • None

            Yeah I have been reading the gendercritical and peak trans threads on subreddit

            A lot of crazy stuff there. MTTs are nuts.

          • None

            Yeah I have been reading the gendercritical and peak trans threads on subreddit

            A lot of crazy stuff there. MTTs are nuts.

          • BrianSheller

            I’m familiar with Walt and his frequent posts at the Federalist (which is an odd place to find him)

            The gender critical reddit is also a place I like to keep an eye on. The women there seem to have a lot of man-related hand wringing to sort out separately, but they see the transgender issue for exactly what it is.

            They do a good job of seeking out and sharing trans-madness, and the ‘Peak Trans II’ thread stuck to the top is a fun read any time.

          • None

            Yep. And SRS is not, on average, fully successful. In fact, suicide rates remain about the same. It is a mental illness. http://www.sexchangereget.com

            You might also want to check out http://www.4thwavenow.com – the author talks about how transgenderism is harming children.

          • BrianSheller

            Thanks for sharing the post. I feel for that woman writing.

            It seems to be a recursive depressive disorder that is only fed and fueled by internet access to deeper and darker circles of others sharing the same condition.

            The rabbit hole that these guys get pulled into seems so similar to those suffering from other looping depressive conditions that can never be satisfied by the behavior brought on by the condition itself. Then they play it out like it’s normal and start projecting their disorder on to a younger generation.

            And it’s this normalization of such a disorder of thinking that I worry will be sold to younger and younger individuals by any number of unscrupulous medical professionals, and bought by one well-intentioned parent after the other.

            The idea that an adolescent girl or boy will be fed puberty blockers on account of some unsubstantiated claim such as ‘lady-brain’ or ‘gender-identity’ really eats me up.

      • None

        http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/524935201_1280x720.jpg
        http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/17/today-im-saying-goodbye-to-my-old-self/

        Danielle Muscato identifies as a woman. She needs to use the woman’s loo for her own safety. She has said so on twitter. As you can clearly see from the photo, she will become a victim of violence if she uses a man’s bathroom looking like that!

        https://twitter.com/daniellemuscato/status/714802570062004227
        https://twitter.com/daniellemuscato/status/719554026233155584

  • StillStandingNow

    It’s all fun and equality until one man is easily restraining one woman and sexually assaulting her. Transgender guys should be welcome to the safety of womens’ restrooms, but all women (and little girls and boys) should NOT have to use men’s restrooms just to make it safe for transgendered people. TG should be legally welcome in any women’s restroom. This seems like a safe and fair option. Have you SMELLED the urine everywhere around mens’ rooms? Ever been near a drunk man peeing? MOST don’t even care where it lands. Evaporated condensed and aged urine is what we smell in MEN’s rooms. No thank you.

    • Marissa Anne

      A rapist is going to rape, whether its in a bathroom, a bush, or whatever. There are THOUSANDS of gender-neutral bathrooms. There are NO examples of rape or increased incidents of rape because of these bathrooms. As for your point about men’s bathrooms, I don’t disagree, except that women don’t seem much more clean than men in the bathroom from what I’ve experienced using public washrooms for both. I’ve even seen shoe marks on women’s toilet seats from the obvious act of squatting over the seat.

      • anna kakazu preble

        I hate that false argument that I as a cisgender female would be placed in greater danger by these new policies addressing public health problems – they used to make these same arguments about racial intermarriage and full parental rights for gay heads of households.

      • anna kakazu preble

        also, when I brought that up before (wayyy before you got here) I was told that I was comparing “apples to oranges” and that there were no such statistics supporting that argument: that there has not been an increase in intimate violence/sexual assaults in the cities/towns where such inclusion laws have been passed. Ridiculous detractors, who don’t know what it takes to create policy in a democracy.

      • None

        Risk reduction.

  • Christopher Finnegan

    Okay please explain to me how a neutral bathroom will stop a man/boy from beating up a noticeable transgender inside the bathroom? Transgenders are attacked no matter where they go. Bullying occurs all the time in front of others and lots of people don’t do a thing to stop them so what makes y’all think that bathrooms will be an exception? Please explain with details and facts instead of unnecessary criticism like most people do.

    • anna kakazu preble

      so the point of introducing these laws was to acknowledge that, despite what *some people* think, members of the transgender community have a right to use the bathroom that corresponds with their identity, without being harrassed, ‘policed’ by employees, or arrested.

      I don’t understand why the commenters on this board don’t seem to understand that bathrooms are still covered by the laws of our land and assault is ALWAYS illegal there.

      The idea that someone managed to use such a space to assault others means that the bathroom itself is most likely in a secluded location and/or present other security risks.

      I wish people would stop blaming that on innocent people who have nothing to do with such attacks.

  • anna kakazu preble

    my god, I had to read that again: severe binge drinking is a reason to cite safety concerns AGAINST full gender inclusion? If I think about a passed out female a frat party is much more likely to come to mind than an all inclusive bathroom. Tsk, tsk. I know your article is old, but it falls WAY short of convincing me that these “trade offs” are enough to continue to isolate entire communities, especially in our younger generations. Also, the “safety” concern is a victorian paternal tradition that I suspect many college students, male or female, should take a hard look at and ask again: does that attitude really serve our society in this new millenium?

    • Voice_of_Reason

      “isolate” “entire communities”? what?

      is the bathroom now a social occassion?

      • anna kakazu preble

        I was referring to the issue of isolating people who are harassed for using segregated bathrooms. It might just be because I’m drawing from other conversations in MY community, about “colored only” facilities – that I do actually make these connections.

        • Voice_of_Reason

          what segregated facilities?

      • anna kakazu preble

        I was referring to the issue of isolating people who are harassed for using segregated bathrooms. It might just be because I’m drawing from other conversations in MY community, about “colored only” facilities – that I do actually make these connections.

    • Voice_of_Reason

      “isolate” “entire communities”? what?

      is the bathroom now a social occassion?

  • Voice_of_Reason

    many women are not going to feel comfortable showering and defecating in front of strange men or coworkers

    many men are not going to feel comfortable doing the same in front of strange women or coworkers.

    and whether feminists like it or not, gender neutral bathrooms are safer for everyone.

    separate bathrooms work for 99.999% of the population.

    • anna kakazu preble

      pretty sure transgender would disagree with your figures.

      • Voice_of_Reason

        so what.

        • anna kakazu preble

          very logical.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            why don’t you provide better figures rather than committing the logical fallacy of “pleading to authority” – a pretty scant authority, at that.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I do believe that this article and companion message board, like so many other such articles lately, show that our society has not yet come to understand how to even define gender expression and inclusion, much less accurately measure it. However, there might be some statistics on how many public bathrooms ARE indeed all inclusive: they’re the “direct access”, single user restrooms. It seems that allowing anybody to use any available facility doesn’t cause any emotional distress or confusion.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            single user bathrooms are a different topic entirely.

            as for gender expression, i really don’t care if you deeply identify as a cat, dress like a cat, even get plastic surgery to look like a cat. it’s a free country.

            but you aren’t a cat. No more than bruce jenner or bradley manning are women.

          • anna kakazu preble

            well of course direct access facilities don’t prompt the same red herring responses as multi-stall bathrooms about safety related “concerns”. Data where restrooms have been modified for full inclusion of gender identity and expression have provided stats intended to debunk the myth (here’s one such source http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201403200001). No other data have shown that women were attacked because the policy was amended for full inclusion.

            But your argument doesn’t seem very consistent when one considers that it’s not GENDER that is the issue. You stated above that gender neutral bathrooms are not safe for everyone. Well, that’s not entirely true, is it?

            It’s been a long time position that misogyny, not inclusion, is the root of sexual violence against women. In our current situation in this country, transwomen encounter a great deal more hostility that enables that sort of unsafe environment in multi-stall restrooms – not cis-gender women. I suspect that this exchange here will demonstrate that hostility is indeed very intense towards transwomen. Your posts about Jenner and Manning suggest that you have absolutely no respect for other people’s identity, whether it be as a feminist of color, a transgender youth, or any other identity that you find too frightening or upsetting to accept.

            If this is how you conduct yourself here, on a publicly viewable website, how do you conduct yourself when you come across individuals in a semi-secluded bathroom area? Food for thought.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            your link is broken. remove the last parenthetical.

            when i got to your article, i saw no statistics. it doesn’t seem to debunk anything, it’s just opinion from self-proclaimed “experts”.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Sure, I had the link in parens, so I guess that’s why the comment form didn’t know how to treat the link.

            sure, I guess city employees and policy makers are self proclaimed experts – never mind that the city and county policy deliberations I’ve ever been fortunate to be a part of all request testimony from both sides, including non-self-proclaimed experts on sexual assault. #sarcasm

            State and city offices are also the ones who are in a position to say whether any sexual assaults have occurred since the implementation of these policies. It’s certainly much more cogent than sheer speculation.

            That’s why I specifically linked to those city officials (and sure, some are non profits, such as the state commission on human rights).
            Des Moines Police Dept;
            Cambridge police;
            Minneapolis Police Dept;
            Las Vegas Police Dept;
            Albuquerque Police Dept;
            Oregon Bureau of labor&industries;
            Portland Police Dept;
            Montpelier Police Dept.

            Maybe that’s what has thrown you off: the utter lack of reports of assaults. Null data is still data.

            Somehow I have a feeling you will disdain or denounce the other multitudes of sexual violence and survivor advocacy experts even more, because they point out that voices such as yours have been quiet alllllll these years about violence against women until this issue arose. We’re just a lot of defiant females, and that has gotten many of us attacked or killed in the past, whether it was on this topic, or other dialogues where we demanded to be included as full members of the public sphere.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            interesting change of topic you introduce. so where are the STATS that you claim exist that show gender neutral bathrooms are safer?

          • anna kakazu preble

            hey, don’t let me hog the mic here. Where are YOURS that say they’re NOT?

          • anna kakazu preble

            Maybe you could explain tome how I changed the topic – I answered your question about statistics (in other words, ZERO reports of assault to “self proclaimed’ experts – the police!). You’ve eliminated the validity of the statistics kept by sexual assault advocacy organizations because they’re apparently not human enough for you to consider the other side. You’ve flamed this board long enough, and I’ve submitted my rebuttals (with my actual name, I might add – not an alias) and you continue to say they’re not good enough for you.

            I’ll let the other readers judge. At this point because we’re on a new chapter of social and institutional inclusivity in the American public sphere, it’s very difficult to point to stats because, for all the years that I’ve been a data miner, I’ve sought to provide as robust a data set as possible. We probably need to wait about another 5 to 10 years to reexamine the statistics in all the municipalities I’ve listed above.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I should also retract: Zero stats is NOT null data, as I mentioned above. However, “I don’t know of any such occurrences” from police dept liaisons makes any data miner very nervous, because Null IS an “I don’t know” – not the same as “zero”.

            But I digress – I shouldn’t nerd out on you about data – that might be confusing.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            so what would be interesting to me from a statistical point would be to compare apples to apples. you seem to concede such data does not exist.

            i can tell you based on anectdotal evidence of discussions with women in my workplace, the ones i spoke with don’t feel comfortable with co-ed bathrooms or sharing a bathroom with a man who thinks he’s a woman. maybe they would feel differently if everyone had a fully enclosed stall.

          • LostInUnderland

            The women you work with may also not feel comfortable expressing a different opinion than you when it you obviously have strong feelings about this issue.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            no, they don’t have any issues expressing their opinions.

          • Voice_of_Reason
          • anna kakazu preble

            That is not one of MY links.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            interesting change of topic you introduce. so where are the STATS that you claim exist that show gender neutral bathrooms are safer?

          • Starley

            I have found plenty of cases of perverts in the ladies rooms. I even found sexual harassment cases involving cameras. So please, forget giving a “Get out of Jail Free” card to every pervert in town.

            Keep in mind, previously the few places it was allowed were not generally known. Fear of arrest kept them out. Now you are giving the hunters free reign to hunt.

          • Jina Nguyen

            I strongly agreed with Starley on this. Now those perverts have 100% access to all bathrooms, and therefore, nothing is stopping them now.

          • Jina Nguyen

            I strongly agreed with Starley on this. Now those perverts have 100% access to all bathrooms, and therefore, nothing is stopping them now.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I’ve seen plenty off pervs or peepers in there too. Thing is, they’re not the same as transgender people. and what i especially don’t understand is that they don’t bother putting on dresses in order to do so. Men who rape don’t have to dress up as women to do it. I do not see the “men in dresses” argument as valid in this conversation.

          • Starley

            No. The problem is there is no empirical standard to define transgender. It is so broad as to be non-existent. However, sex is simple biology.

            And yes, the primary danger is the fact biological men are the danger to the women. So say the crime statistics before and after surgery. So use the one assigned and designed for your biology.

          • Starley

            No. The problem is there is no empirical standard to define transgender. It is so broad as to be non-existent. However, sex is simple biology.

            And yes, the primary danger is the fact biological men are the danger to the women. So say the crime statistics before and after surgery. So use the one assigned and designed for your biology.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I’ve seen plenty off pervs or peepers in there too. Thing is, they’re not the same as transgender people. and what i especially don’t understand is that they don’t bother putting on dresses in order to do so. Men who rape don’t have to dress up as women to do it. I do not see the “men in dresses” argument as valid in this conversation.

          • Starley

            I have found plenty of cases of perverts in the ladies rooms. I even found sexual harassment cases involving cameras. So please, forget giving a “Get out of Jail Free” card to every pervert in town.

            Keep in mind, previously the few places it was allowed were not generally known. Fear of arrest kept them out. Now you are giving the hunters free reign to hunt.

          • Starley

            I have respect for people. That is a different issue from identity.

            Identity is based as much on how society sees a person as how they see themselves. A plumber who never learned the skill is not a plumber. The same goes for biological plumbing reference males and females.

            And seeing yourself as skinny at 300 lbs does not make your identity skinny in reality. Nor the sick into healthy. Nor does having an internal identity of rich put money in the bank.

            You vision of self does not mean it is reality to anyone else.

          • Starley

            I have respect for people. That is a different issue from identity.

            Identity is based as much on how society sees a person as how they see themselves. A plumber who never learned the skill is not a plumber. The same goes for biological plumbing reference males and females.

            And seeing yourself as skinny at 300 lbs does not make your identity skinny in reality. Nor the sick into healthy. Nor does having an internal identity of rich put money in the bank.

            You vision of self does not mean it is reality to anyone else.

          • anna kakazu preble

            If you’re addressing me, Starley, in this convo I identify as a cisgender female ally. A foreign born, brown female ally who cannot tolerate seeing jim crow BS deployed against another minority population – we were supposed to have learned from the mistakes of the past and not repeat them.

          • Starley

            No Jim Crow. I just think females have the right to defecate, piss and shower without some male pervert coming into their restroom. It is bad enough that I have to deal with them.

            It is not Jim Crow to expect people to use the restroom of their biology. That would be a false analogy. Everyone else abides by the same universal standard.

            And while mental conflicts may be a minority, the norm is to adjust to society, not make society adjust to them. What would be weird is making society adjust to the subjective reality of each individual.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Unless you can demonstrate that you know what it means to live in a white supremacist country which once had 3/8 laws, one-drop laws, and other segregationist laws (“bathrooms for whites only”, “bathrooms for colored only”), then sorry, you can’t just convince me by simply promoting cultural assimilation. You call that “adjustment”, people like those in my community (as well as others) call that “assimilation” or even “genocide”.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Unless you can demonstrate that you know what it means to live in a white supremacist country which once had 3/8 laws, one-drop laws, and other segregationist laws (“bathrooms for whites only”, “bathrooms for colored only”), then sorry, you can’t just convince me by simply promoting cultural assimilation. You call that “adjustment”, people like those in my community (as well as others) call that “assimilation” or even “genocide”.

          • Starley

            Actually I lived at that time. And my last statements stands as valid. We are not giving anyone any different treatment than anyone else, nor separating them. It is the individuals demanding different treatment. So, again, you are creating a false analogy and creating a villain that does not exist.

            And your entire justification is invalid. We are not segregating, we are dealing with reality and safety. They are being treated the same as all others. The fact is that thinking you are special or different does not make you special. And demanding treatment different from the rest of society does not mean we must bow to that demand.

          • Starley

            Actually I lived at that time. And my last statements stands as valid. We are not giving anyone any different treatment than anyone else, nor separating them. It is the individuals demanding different treatment. So, again, you are creating a false analogy and creating a villain that does not exist.

            And your entire justification is invalid. We are not segregating, we are dealing with reality and safety. They are being treated the same as all others. The fact is that thinking you are special or different does not make you special. And demanding treatment different from the rest of society does not mean we must bow to that demand.

          • anna kakazu preble

            So, once again, I’m a cis-gender ally, NOT a transgender person who’s asking you to recognize that I’m “special”, whatever that means (you sound like you have some childhood rooted issues). I’m glad you can keep these things straight – I’m not arguing special rights for anyone. I’m arguing everyone is *entitled* to have a safe and sanitary place to meet biological needs that all humans have. I argue this in policy discussions with regards to the disabled (oh, but never mind, they have “special rights” too, called the ADA), parents with young children of the opposite sex, homeless people (especially women), etc etc.

            You say that jim crow is a villain that does not exist. Well, considering that colleges and universities have constructed entire pedagogies and curricula around white supremacy in the US, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that is your *opinion*. Glad to see that you know how to pick sides with white power.

            Your tactic of repeating yourself is thus, non-sequtor. I trust this means we’ll agree to disagree and you won’t address me again, because you’re exactly the kind of person I imagine is wistful for the day when they could use racial slurs and rape-culture references without being corrected in public. consider that the time people of color had to be politically correct, it was to not complain about burning crosses or “strange fruit” or having to sit in the back of the bus. My community elders were probably better off in concentration camps after 1942, according to you.

            You don’t get it. You can’t bully us anymore. We’re living in a pluralistic society now, and that is beyond your control. Too bad, so sad.

          • Starley

            Restrooms are available for everyone. Dead end argument. And your racism accusation is annoying but since I have no respect for your opinion, irrelevant.

            I love people power. Anyone can be whatever they are capable and willing to work for. Jim Crow is history. And should be taught as such by schools.

            If you want to recognize white supremacy and act on its existence you are only lowering yourself in your own eyes. It is an excuse for your own failures. I see many friends including white, black, Indian, oriental, who have succeeded on their own efforts. White supremacy is an excuse for failure. It is rarely a reality today. And I have lived in times when Jim Crow was real. Today it is rare to almost non existent.

            So quit making excuses and creating victims. You can use any excuse you want for victimhood. There will always be one. And no one will give a damn. The only thing that counts is what you do for yourself because I do not owe you a damn thing.

          • anna kakazu preble

            If anything, you and the other bigots on this board (1) criminalize transgender by referring to them as pervs and criminals, and (2) bring the “villain” when I said there was none. all you can do is put out he same time patriarchal rhetoric about your fake concern for women: but when I ask you like I’ve asked others about female soldiers, you have zero answers. I already asked you not to address me again and clearly have no respect for your red herring, unintelligent, 19th-century rhetoric (but since I don’t know you personally, I don’t need to go as far as you’ve gone to try and reject me hehehehehHEEEEE). Hopefully you can find someone else to troll. thanks!

          • anna kakazu preble

            If anything, you and the other bigots on this board (1) criminalize transgender by referring to them as pervs and criminals, and (2) bring the “villain” when I said there was none. all you can do is put out he same time patriarchal rhetoric about your fake concern for women: but when I ask you like I’ve asked others about female soldiers, you have zero answers. I already asked you not to address me again and clearly have no respect for your red herring, unintelligent, 19th-century rhetoric (but since I don’t know you personally, I don’t need to go as far as you’ve gone to try and reject me hehehehehHEEEEE). Hopefully you can find someone else to troll. thanks!

          • anna kakazu preble

            I can already feel starley chicken-pecking another banal and asinine response….

          • anna kakazu preble

            oh, my bad, maybe Starley IS capable of learning new tricks!

          • anna kakazu preble

            oh, my bad, maybe Starley IS capable of learning new tricks!

          • Starley

            Again, failure to address the argument. Use of insults only shows a lack in your argument.

          • Starley

            Again, failure to address the argument. Use of insults only shows a lack in your argument.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I can already feel starley chicken-pecking another banal and asinine response….

          • None

            Massive strawman. What we are concerned about are broad ‘gender identity’ laws that basically make it legal for men to claim that they trans women and perv on women in female only spaces.

            You want to put women in harm’s way, and see their privacy invaded, to help pervie men, mostly, since true trans people are a miniscule % of the population.

            Your willingness to throw women under the bus is duly noted.

            Some ‘feminist’ you are.

          • None

            Massive strawman. What we are concerned about are broad ‘gender identity’ laws that basically make it legal for men to claim that they trans women and perv on women in female only spaces.

            You want to put women in harm’s way, and see their privacy invaded, to help pervie men, mostly, since true trans people are a miniscule % of the population.

            Your willingness to throw women under the bus is duly noted.

            Some ‘feminist’ you are.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I’ve already asked starley, so I will (once again) repeat myself: WHERE in the law does it say that?

          • anna kakazu preble

            I’ve already asked starley, so I will (once again) repeat myself: WHERE in the law does it say that?

          • None

            The NC law is a reaction to a broad ‘gender identity’ law passed by the NC democrats which makes it legal for any biological male on this planet to claim the gender identity of woman and use female only facilities – just like in WA state, where a man walked into a change room at the pool and got naked while a girl’s swim team was there. When confronted he said ‘I have the legal right to be here’, and he was correct, since proclaimed gender identity is UNFALSIFIABLE.

          • anna kakazu preble

            unfalsifiable. Great. I am arguing with people who don’t speak english.

          • anna kakazu preble

            unfalsifiable. Great. I am arguing with people who don’t speak english.

          • None

            Yeah. Any man can claim that he ‘feels like a woman on the inside’ and it is impossible to prove a feeling wrong, you twit.

          • None

            Yeah. Any man can claim that he ‘feels like a woman on the inside’ and it is impossible to prove a feeling wrong, you twit.

          • Starley

            Stick to the issue. You build strawmen yet never have you shown any fallacy in our logic.

          • Starley

            Stick to the issue. You build strawmen yet never have you shown any fallacy in our logic.

          • None

            The NC law is a reaction to a broad ‘gender identity’ law passed by the NC democrats which makes it legal for any biological male on this planet to claim the gender identity of woman and use female only facilities – just like in WA state, where a man walked into a change room at the pool and got naked while a girl’s swim team was there. When confronted he said ‘I have the legal right to be here’, and he was correct, since proclaimed gender identity is UNFALSIFIABLE.

          • Starley

            Laws on gender identity fail to define the qualifiers. What is gender identity except a claim of a feeling. Anyone can make a claim. Even psychology only uses the claim or discomfort as evidence. There is no definable male or female personality.

            Please give me one mental feature of a female… or a male. There are NO unique mental characteristics. Any person in a woman’s issues course would identify that both male and female have the same basic mental abilities and characteristics, and even potential.

            The innate masculine or feminine has never been proven as all mental characteristics appear in both sexes. Masculine and feminine behavior and roles are culture specific and could be quite contrary in different groups, nations, cultures, religions, and civilizations.

          • Starley

            Laws on gender identity fail to define the qualifiers. What is gender identity except a claim of a feeling. Anyone can make a claim. Even psychology only uses the claim or discomfort as evidence. There is no definable male or female personality.

            Please give me one mental feature of a female… or a male. There are NO unique mental characteristics. Any person in a woman’s issues course would identify that both male and female have the same basic mental abilities and characteristics, and even potential.

            The innate masculine or feminine has never been proven as all mental characteristics appear in both sexes. Masculine and feminine behavior and roles are culture specific and could be quite contrary in different groups, nations, cultures, religions, and civilizations.

          • Starley

            You lose. Perverts are people who get off sexually sneaking into rest rooms and beating off. Trans just happen to have a mental issue with gender (DSM5). Perverts were criminals until you gave them permission to watch bathroom, shower, and toilet activity legally.

            You show your bias by assuming my concern is fake. You do not know me so I must assume I am prejudged. That indicates your prejudice against anyone with a different view.

            Last, no one has endorsed any abuse of transsexuals. I have fought physically to protect black, white, and gay. I just feel I have no obligation to buy or adjust to their mental discomfort (DSM5).

            We have addressed open door policy for restrooms. Because no reasonable identifier other than biological sex exists. Allowing anyone making a claim or just anyone into these areas is the thing we object to.

          • Starley

            You lose. Perverts are people who get off sexually sneaking into rest rooms and beating off. Trans just happen to have a mental issue with gender (DSM5). Perverts were criminals until you gave them permission to watch bathroom, shower, and toilet activity legally.

            You show your bias by assuming my concern is fake. You do not know me so I must assume I am prejudged. That indicates your prejudice against anyone with a different view.

            Last, no one has endorsed any abuse of transsexuals. I have fought physically to protect black, white, and gay. I just feel I have no obligation to buy or adjust to their mental discomfort (DSM5).

            We have addressed open door policy for restrooms. Because no reasonable identifier other than biological sex exists. Allowing anyone making a claim or just anyone into these areas is the thing we object to.

          • Starley

            By the way. Due to you prejudging people and invalidating what they consider valid concerns, then using stereotypes going into history etc, I must state you are extremely prejudiced. I think that makes you one of the biggest bigots on this board.

          • Starley

            By the way. Due to you prejudging people and invalidating what they consider valid concerns, then using stereotypes going into history etc, I must state you are extremely prejudiced. I think that makes you one of the biggest bigots on this board.

          • anna kakazu preble

            YOU tried to “create” victims by airing out your restroom rape fantasy here. Double standards — especially those of white males, who have been at liberty to rape and kill during the time of Jim Crow – are really quite irritating and irrelevant.

          • None

            Keep referencing Jim Crow, it has no bearing on this.

          • anna kakazu preble

            how so? Segregation is segregation by any other name. We who have lived within that legal code recognize it in its forms and restrictions.

          • None

            Bathrooms are not gender segregated. They are sex segregated. You are arguing that biological males are being treated like Jim Crow era black people because they can’t use women’s restrooms etc at will WHEN THEY HAVE THEIR OWN.

          • None

            Bathrooms are not gender segregated. They are sex segregated. You are arguing that biological males are being treated like Jim Crow era black people because they can’t use women’s restrooms etc at will WHEN THEY HAVE THEIR OWN.

          • anna kakazu preble

            how so? Segregation is segregation by any other name. We who have lived within that legal code recognize it in its forms and restrictions.

          • None

            Keep referencing Jim Crow, it has no bearing on this.

          • Starley

            I figured it out. You want to be a victim and create more. Sorry lady, I have no compassion for you. You are a pain in the butt on your own merits. You can make excuses for self pity and anger for being a victim but I have no reason to buy into it. Your accusations falls empty as I know not just my own life but my family history going back 800 years. No cause for current or historical guilt.

            As far as restrooms, locker rooms, showers, etc. Males in male areas and females to theirs. Simple safety, modesty and privacy. If someone is uncomfortable with the assignment by sex let them use a gender neutral or single use facility. That is a legitimate accommodation to anyone who feels uncomfortable in a multi person facility.

          • Starley

            I figured it out. You want to be a victim and create more. Sorry lady, I have no compassion for you. You are a pain in the butt on your own merits. You can make excuses for self pity and anger for being a victim but I have no reason to buy into it. Your accusations falls empty as I know not just my own life but my family history going back 800 years. No cause for current or historical guilt.

            As far as restrooms, locker rooms, showers, etc. Males in male areas and females to theirs. Simple safety, modesty and privacy. If someone is uncomfortable with the assignment by sex let them use a gender neutral or single use facility. That is a legitimate accommodation to anyone who feels uncomfortable in a multi person facility.

          • anna kakazu preble

            YOU tried to “create” victims by airing out your restroom rape fantasy here. Double standards — especially those of white males, who have been at liberty to rape and kill during the time of Jim Crow – are really quite irritating and irrelevant.

          • anna kakazu preble

            LOL the way you promote white supremacy and cultural superiority (aka colonialism) is alllll old hat. You still couldn’t make the case in a court of law. I’m referencing the North Carolina law which FORCES transgender people to use the bathroom which “corresponds with their sex recorded at birth” — and we haven’t even discussed those who are born as “intersex”. Those laws place trans people at risk of either being assaulted or arrested, one or the other. Gender expression is not the same as biological sex, and the only laws I see which FORCE anyone to do anything is the imposition placed upon trans. to use bathrooms which draw attention to their much hated gender expressions.

          • anna kakazu preble

            LOL the way you promote white supremacy and cultural superiority (aka colonialism) is alllll old hat. You still couldn’t make the case in a court of law. I’m referencing the North Carolina law which FORCES transgender people to use the bathroom which “corresponds with their sex recorded at birth” — and we haven’t even discussed those who are born as “intersex”. Those laws place trans people at risk of either being assaulted or arrested, one or the other. Gender expression is not the same as biological sex, and the only laws I see which FORCE anyone to do anything is the imposition placed upon trans. to use bathrooms which draw attention to their much hated gender expressions.

          • None

            So you are saying that white supremacists are cruelly keeping white men down by not letting them use female only facilities at will.

            Ok….

          • anna kakazu preble

            at least you don’t make up the words you put in my mouth. idiot.

          • None

            The majority population of the USA is white and many of these pervs that you want to help perv on women with a simple LIE that they are women are white.

            Twit.

          • None

            The majority population of the USA is white and many of these pervs that you want to help perv on women with a simple LIE that they are women are white.

            Twit.

          • anna kakazu preble

            at least you don’t make up the words you put in my mouth. idiot.

          • anna kakazu preble

            so done. Have fun watching your slice of the pie get smaller, suckas! I really DO have other places to be than listen to a lot of white people with zero social resilience whine about the sad conditions of their lives in the new millenium.

          • anna kakazu preble

            so done. Have fun watching your slice of the pie get smaller, suckas! I really DO have other places to be than listen to a lot of white people with zero social resilience whine about the sad conditions of their lives in the new millenium.

          • anna kakazu preble

            as one of my white aunties would say, “call the wahmbulance”

            and one more note: Lisa, if the biggest thing you’re afraid of in sharing bathrooms is that a trans male would look better than you, maybe you should take up shaving.

          • anna kakazu preble

            as one of my white aunties would say, “call the wahmbulance”

            and one more note: Lisa, if the biggest thing you’re afraid of in sharing bathrooms is that a trans male would look better than you, maybe you should take up shaving.

          • None

            How childish.

          • None

            How childish.

          • None

            So you are saying that white supremacists are cruelly keeping white men down by not letting them use female only facilities at will.

            Ok….

          • Starley

            Restrooms are available for everyone. Dead end argument. And your racism accusation is annoying but since I have no respect for your opinion, irrelevant.

            I love people power. Anyone can be whatever they are capable and willing to work for. Jim Crow is history. And should be taught as such by schools.

            If you want to recognize white supremacy and act on its existence you are only lowering yourself in your own eyes. It is an excuse for your own failures. I see many friends including white, black, Indian, oriental, who have succeeded on their own efforts. White supremacy is an excuse for failure. It is rarely a reality today. And I have lived in times when Jim Crow was real. Today it is rare to almost non existent.

            So quit making excuses and creating victims. You can use any excuse you want for victimhood. There will always be one. And no one will give a damn. The only thing that counts is what you do for yourself because I do not owe you a damn thing.

          • anna kakazu preble

            So, once again, I’m a cis-gender ally, NOT a transgender person who’s asking you to recognize that I’m “special”, whatever that means (you sound like you have some childhood rooted issues). I’m glad you can keep these things straight – I’m not arguing special rights for anyone. I’m arguing everyone is *entitled* to have a safe and sanitary place to meet biological needs that all humans have. I argue this in policy discussions with regards to the disabled (oh, but never mind, they have “special rights” too, called the ADA), parents with young children of the opposite sex, homeless people (especially women), etc etc.

            You say that jim crow is a villain that does not exist. Well, considering that colleges and universities have constructed entire pedagogies and curricula around white supremacy in the US, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that is your *opinion*. Glad to see that you know how to pick sides with white power.

            Your tactic of repeating yourself is thus, non-sequtor. I trust this means we’ll agree to disagree and you won’t address me again, because you’re exactly the kind of person I imagine is wistful for the day when they could use racial slurs and rape-culture references without being corrected in public. consider that the time people of color had to be politically correct, it was to not complain about burning crosses or “strange fruit” or having to sit in the back of the bus. My community elders were probably better off in concentration camps after 1942, according to you.

            You don’t get it. You can’t bully us anymore. We’re living in a pluralistic society now, and that is beyond your control. Too bad, so sad.

          • Starley

            Actually, Jim Crow and all the rest are irrelevant to the current conversation. We are dealing with the fact that men who claim they are another sex with no evidence can go into the females restrooms and showers.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I guess you just don’t listen. so, can you cite your source as to where in the
            LAW it says any such thing?

          • Starley

            Check the building codes for the last century in every state. It demands segregated restrooms and showers. The issues are privacy, modesty, and safety.

            Men in the ladies room at work is sexual harassment. Rape centers for women can legally exclude men.

            http://www.americanrestroom.org/code/ipc_chapter4.pdf

          • None

            Just a heads up, but you are dealing with someone who thinks that she is hot sh*t because she has a gender studies degree.

          • None

            Just a heads up, but you are dealing with someone who thinks that she is hot sh*t because she has a gender studies degree.

          • Starley

            Check the building codes for the last century in every state. It demands segregated restrooms and showers. The issues are privacy, modesty, and safety.

            Men in the ladies room at work is sexual harassment. Rape centers for women can legally exclude men.

            http://www.americanrestroom.org/code/ipc_chapter4.pdf

          • anna kakazu preble

            I guess you just don’t listen. so, can you cite your source as to where in the
            LAW it says any such thing?

          • None

            I find it amazing that they compare this to racial segregation. A black person cannot help being born black. A woman cannot help being born female.

            A man doesn’t *have* to put on a dress and wig. Bathrooms are SEX segregated not gender identity segregated – male person can use the bathroom for male. Males are not being discriminated against because they can’t pee next to women.

            And bear in mind, these ‘gender identity’ laws do not only apply to bathrooms – they apply to *all* sex segregated spaces – dv shelters, change rooms, locker rooms,showers, rape crisis centers etc.

          • None

            I find it amazing that they compare this to racial segregation. A black person cannot help being born black. A woman cannot help being born female.

            A man doesn’t *have* to put on a dress and wig. Bathrooms are SEX segregated not gender identity segregated – male person can use the bathroom for male. Males are not being discriminated against because they can’t pee next to women.

            And bear in mind, these ‘gender identity’ laws do not only apply to bathrooms – they apply to *all* sex segregated spaces – dv shelters, change rooms, locker rooms,showers, rape crisis centers etc.

          • Starley

            By the way, the 3/8 law applied to slaves. White, black, or American Indian. For the purpose of the census. The object was to reduce the number of representatives in Congress of slaveholders. Representation was determined by population. So the more slaves you had the greater the number of politicians. This amendment reduced the power of the slave owners and slave states. So that law FAVORED the slaves, it did not devalue them. When free they counted equal.

            Always good to know your history.

            As far as assimilation, yes, it is required. You must adjust into the culture within which you exist. Western, eastern, socialist, capitalist, democracy… You need neither give up heritage, family history, or personal preference. You do however need to function reasonably within the society you exist. All it means is you can be an individual functioning in a greater society.

          • Starley

            By the way, the 3/8 law applied to slaves. White, black, or American Indian. For the purpose of the census. The object was to reduce the number of representatives in Congress of slaveholders. Representation was determined by population. So the more slaves you had the greater the number of politicians. This amendment reduced the power of the slave owners and slave states. So that law FAVORED the slaves, it did not devalue them. When free they counted equal.

            Always good to know your history.

            As far as assimilation, yes, it is required. You must adjust into the culture within which you exist. Western, eastern, socialist, capitalist, democracy… You need neither give up heritage, family history, or personal preference. You do however need to function reasonably within the society you exist. All it means is you can be an individual functioning in a greater society.

          • anna kakazu preble

            and it sure would be great to hear you elaborate on the slings and arrows of your alleged adjustment. and I’d like to hear more than you simply using females to advance your position.

          • Starley

            Actually I find the justification adequate. No more needed.

          • anna kakazu preble

            of course you do, sweetheart! Those who want to maintain an unjust status quo can never deconstruct their conclusions and trace a train of logic relating to the origins of what you were brainwashed to believe.

          • anna kakazu preble

            of course you do, sweetheart! Those who want to maintain an unjust status quo can never deconstruct their conclusions and trace a train of logic relating to the origins of what you were brainwashed to believe.

          • Starley

            Actually I find the justification adequate. No more needed.

          • anna kakazu preble

            and it sure would be great to hear you elaborate on the slings and arrows of your alleged adjustment. and I’d like to hear more than you simply using females to advance your position.

          • Starley

            No Jim Crow. I just think females have the right to defecate, piss and shower without some male pervert coming into their restroom. It is bad enough that I have to deal with them.

            It is not Jim Crow to expect people to use the restroom of their biology. That would be a false analogy. Everyone else abides by the same universal standard.

            And while mental conflicts may be a minority, the norm is to adjust to society, not make society adjust to them. What would be weird is making society adjust to the subjective reality of each individual.

          • anna kakazu preble

            If you’re addressing me, Starley, in this convo I identify as a cisgender female ally. A foreign born, brown female ally who cannot tolerate seeing jim crow BS deployed against another minority population – we were supposed to have learned from the mistakes of the past and not repeat them.

          • Starley

            I would get better sources. Finding cases was actually pretty easy. However, the issue is whether more perverts will be active once we make it safer to do so. Since you would make it universal that we cannot restrict who goes to which restroom, locker room or shower, I fail to see any way we can separate the gender confused from the pervert.

            I find police reports indicate perverts do like to dress for the occasion, plus cameras. You are simply making it safer for the pervert while endangering the majority.

          • None
          • None
          • anna kakazu preble

            stats?

          • anna kakazu preble

            stats?

          • anna kakazu preble

            “Undercover Video Proves That Men — Not Transgendered People, but MEN — Can Use the Women’s Restroom at Target Now”

            Even these headlines say “NOT TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE BUT MEN”

            so….again. Stats? about transgendered people? mkay, thanks.

          • anna kakazu preble
          • anna kakazu preble
          • anna kakazu preble

            “Undercover Video Proves That Men — Not Transgendered People, but MEN — Can Use the Women’s Restroom at Target Now”

            Even these headlines say “NOT TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE BUT MEN”

            so….again. Stats? about transgendered people? mkay, thanks.

          • Starley

            I would get better sources. Finding cases was actually pretty easy. However, the issue is whether more perverts will be active once we make it safer to do so. Since you would make it universal that we cannot restrict who goes to which restroom, locker room or shower, I fail to see any way we can separate the gender confused from the pervert.

            I find police reports indicate perverts do like to dress for the occasion, plus cameras. You are simply making it safer for the pervert while endangering the majority.

          • Starley

            Gender is easy. Sex you were born with. Chromosomes and genitalia except for a few birth defects and chimera.

            Gender behavior is behavior patterns routinely attributed by society as primarily male or female. These behaviors are known as masculine or feminine. While these may be primarily gender behaviors they are not the definition of gender. Masculine and feminine are defined by culture. They vary depending on environment including geography, race, heritage, culture… They are not internal indicators of gender but external expressions of a culture.

            So all you have left is discomfort with your body. That does not make you something different from your body. Just in need of more acceptance of reality.

          • JTMB Videos

            another concern is that this push then appears to make things all better, forgetting that the suicide rates of POST TG are very high and not solely attributed to being mistreated, the attached is an article of a TG2W with links to his blog.http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/01/16191/

          • JTMB Videos

            another concern is that this push then appears to make things all better, forgetting that the suicide rates of POST TG are very high and not solely attributed to being mistreated, the attached is an article of a TG2W with links to his blog.http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/01/16191/

          • Starley

            Gender is easy. Sex you were born with. Chromosomes and genitalia except for a few birth defects and chimera.

            Gender behavior is behavior patterns routinely attributed by society as primarily male or female. These behaviors are known as masculine or feminine. While these may be primarily gender behaviors they are not the definition of gender. Masculine and feminine are defined by culture. They vary depending on environment including geography, race, heritage, culture… They are not internal indicators of gender but external expressions of a culture.

            So all you have left is discomfort with your body. That does not make you something different from your body. Just in need of more acceptance of reality.

          • JTMB Videos

            do you think gender confusion is a disorder?

          • anna kakazu preble

            I cite the american psych association for this response:

            http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

          • anna kakazu preble

            I cite the american psych association for this response:

            http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

          • JTMB Videos

            do you think gender confusion is a disorder?

          • anna kakazu preble

            I do believe that this article and companion message board, like so many other such articles lately, show that our society has not yet come to understand how to even define gender expression and inclusion, much less accurately measure it. However, there might be some statistics on how many public bathrooms ARE indeed all inclusive: they’re the “direct access”, single user restrooms. It seems that allowing anybody to use any available facility doesn’t cause any emotional distress or confusion.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            why don’t you provide better figures rather than committing the logical fallacy of “pleading to authority” – a pretty scant authority, at that.

    • Jina Nguyen

      Separate bathrooms for men/women are ideal and this should never has to change for any reason. The third sex can have their own gender neutral bathrooms.

      • anna kakazu preble

        In this country, we’ve already decided that separate is not equal. Additionally, people are getting the arguments confused: do we not want to come up with direct access (“gender neutral” – gender is never neutral in the US, btw) for ALL the reasons, or do we want to FORCE transgender people (the “perverts”, as some have said) to not be exposed to undue harrassment and danger in public spaces?

      • anna kakazu preble

        In this country, we’ve already decided that separate is not equal. Additionally, people are getting the arguments confused: do we not want to come up with direct access (“gender neutral” – gender is never neutral in the US, btw) for ALL the reasons, or do we want to FORCE transgender people (the “perverts”, as some have said) to not be exposed to undue harrassment and danger in public spaces?

    • Jina Nguyen

      Separate bathrooms for men/women are ideal and this should never has to change for any reason. The third sex can have their own gender neutral bathrooms.

  • happens

    Whether or not there is a possibility of higher sexual assault rates against women if bathrooms were de-segregated, there is a FACT of violence in bathrooms happening right now. Transgender people are often hurt in bathrooms.

    Besides, if someone wanted to hurt a woman, I’m pretty sure they would just go into the women’s restroom anyway. Non-segregated bathrooms might even be SAFER for women, because assailants are less likely to attack if there are more people present.

    • anna kakazu preble

      Could’na said it better – misogyny enables intimate violence. Not wider inclusion for people who need to use a restroom for a basic bodily function.

    • None

      Citation needed.

      • anna kakazu preble

        I don’t “need” to give you anything. I’ve posted links on this discussion which have been set aside by detractors as “apples to oranges”, or as having links that actually support keeping facilities inaccessible to certain groups in the US.

        I don’t know how well versed you are in gender studies, but I have studied intimate violence for a long time, and I’m not sure how you could miss the conversation and accepted premise that sexual assault is about power — not sex.

        But I don’t (cough) need to tell another cis female that. Right?!

        • None

          I’m not Jeffrey Cash you idiot.

          Stop harassing me.

          • anna kakazu preble

            who the hell is Jeffrey Cash?

            LOL if you’re a female you know this double standard is a part of women’s lives. You sure don’t display a lot of resilience as a female living in the US.

          • anna kakazu preble

            and why call me an idiot? 🙁

          • None

            I am not going to respond to you anymore because you are not paying attention to who you are messaging.

            Check your comments in Disqus history. You were talking to HIM and then you accused ME of saying his words.

            PAY ATTENTION

          • anna kakazu preble

            I am very sorry for confusing you with another user. I can’t scroll through *months* of comments effectively (also, I have a life, which means that cuts on this delightful time). That doesn’t mean I’m harrassing you. but thanks for explaining your PMS

          • None
          • anna kakazu preble

            and yet, you keep responding (because YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT in a matter that apparently doesn’t affect you personally) and you don’t accept my apology, on top of attacking my character. got it. thanks for the link!

          • anna kakazu preble

            some people just have to present themselves as abusive wifebeater types. Another great day in ‘Merica.

    • J-dawg

      The last sentence is the real kicker. People don’t seem to understand the fact that creating a nominally women’s-only space only keeps LAW ABIDING men out.

  • rick131

    Single occupancy bathrooms are fine, but coed or multi sex bathrooms are not. There is a significantly more chance for harassment, assault in coed bathrooms. I think generally speaking women don’t want men around when they are showering or going to the bathroom, and men do not want women around when they are peeing. There needs to be a distinction between single use and multi use restrooms.

  • Emily Harris

    so what you’re saying is that women can expect to be assaulted if they were to use a gender-neutral bathroom? Why don’t we teach our men to be respectful (which the majority are, by the way) rather than ignoring these issues with continued segregation?

    • Jeffrey Cash

      We teach people not to do drugs in schools. How’s that working out?

      • Silviu

        Yeah. We should just give everybody free heroin.

      • anna kakazu preble

        how is that relevant to this argument? are you saying IT’S CRIMINAL to identify with a group that is not heterosexual? ’cause I think that’s what you and the hairless cats below are saying. Maybe you wanna think that over.

        • Jeffrey Cash

          If you got that idea from my words, you must’ve been drunk

          • anna kakazu preble

            I didn’t “get that idea” from your words. I’m asking you to clarify your words. But I appreciate how you engage in ad hominem attacks, because it means you fit the same mold as the other power brokers in this country who refuse to relinquish control over other people’s identity politics. Eeeeeeeeeasy Cheeeeeeeeeeesy

          • None

            I am not Jeffrey Cash.

            No wonder your comments to me made no sense.

            Jeffery was having a discussion with you. I was not. Pay attention.

      • BrianSheller

        That’s hardly true. Drug commercials are on every form of media at regular intervals.

        People are taught from the early years to be drug users, school years especially.

    • Voice_of_Reason

      why don’t you grow up and enter the real world?

      • Silviu

        Why don’t you? Fuck off with your ”boys will be boys” bullshit. It’s people like you that make this world a shitty place.

        • Voice_of_Reason

          you are the reason why normal,human beings despise liberals.

          • Silviu

            Keep telling yourself that. And you didn’t refute anything i said.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            You didn’t actually say anything, just some typical ad hominems.

            If your world is a shitty place, look in the mirror for the reason.

          • Silviu

            You should be the one doing that.

            Fortuntely, dipshits like you re losing power. And it terrifies you.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            I should be the one dong what? taking respnsibility for you thinking your world is a shitty place?

          • Silviu

            What do you mean ”my world”? Do you live on a different planet?

          • Voice_of_Reason

            yes, I do live on a different planet. it’s called the real world.

  • The gender neutral facilities I saw in Europe were interesting. Big, well-appointed, busy, full of men and women. The stalls had floor-to-ceiling walls and actual doors. There were no cracks for peeping toms to look through. And they were clean! Each stall was like a private room, but the wash area was open to men and women. I usually saw these in big places with a mostly younger clientele and a modern, contemporary vibe.

    • Starley

      Gender neutral restroom stalls are actually single use restrooms once the walls etc are added as you describe.

    • Starley

      Gender neutral restroom stalls are actually single use restrooms once the walls etc are added as you describe.

  • StillStandingNow

    Seriously, females DON”T want to walk past the guys at the urinals to get to the bathroom, and should not have to. NEUTRAL restrooms should be ONE AT A TIME locking door rooms. NOT stalls and urinals.

    • happens

      Please don’t speak for me:)

      • Jon C.

        He or she spoke for my wife and daughter, who feel exactly that way.

      • anna kakazu preble

        hey, Jon C says you need to shut up because apparently his wife and daughter don’t have their own voices. But you and me? SHUT UP

    • anna kakazu preble

      That’d be quite the optimal solution, but: I’d like to think we can be practical about this – and if upgrading a bathroom means having to convert a multi-stall facility rather than trying to find space for new direct access or free standing facilities (especially in a city like mine that’s quickly approaching buildout), then I’d vote for that and I don’t really care who I walk past when I’m on my way to a bathroom….

      • Jon C.

        The point is, you’re not the only opinion to consider. MANY people would not feel safe or comfortable.

        • anna kakazu preble

          which is why the advocacy group I’m a member of advocates direct access style facilities as the ideal design. Please don’t attack my character as if I have only considered my own opinion as the bottom line – I am all about consensus building, but not endless arguing.

          • lee dalton

            Why do you feel this is necessary? Can’t you just use the restroom that your plumbing is set up for? What about this makes you feel uncomfortable? Why such this endless push for all these special rights and privileges at the sake of the rest of us?

          • None

            I find it interesting that they completely dismiss the very valid concerns of girls and women.

            It’s all about trans safety and trans comfort. Women need to STFU and stop worrying about showering next to potential rapists.

          • LostInUnderland

            So what would you do to make women more safe? If bathrooms were gender neutral areas, do you think that a man would be more or less likely to attack a woman in a bathroom?

          • None

            Do you think that the university was in the wrong to return to
            sex-segregation? Since, as you say, men with evil intentions cannot be
            stopped.

            The University of Toronto is separating the number of gender-neutral bathrooms after two women reported someone had taken video of them in the shower.

            The acts of voyeurism allegedly happened in two separate incidences only a few weeks into the new school year.

            Police said the first incident happened on Sept. 15 at around 10:45 a.m. in a shower on the second floor. The second instance happened four days later at a third floor shower around 9:15 p.m.

            Both women reported seeing someone reach a cellphone over while they were in the shower at Whitney Hall, a student residence in the heart of the university’s downtown campus.

            “In both instances two people noticed a cellphone coming over the edge of the shower stall,” Toronto police Const. Victor Kwong said. “When they went out they saw no one.”

            The school has since reportedly taken steps to alter their gender-neutral policy on many of the residence’s washrooms.

            The funny thing is, the women were only victimized after gender neutral policies were put in place.

            http://www.citynews.ca/2015/10/06/u-of-t-changes-gender-neutral-washroom-policy-after-voyeurism-allegations-surface/

          • anna kakazu preble

            In meeting the threshold of a debate, this is absolutely insufficient: how is there any proof that this was a transgender person?

          • None
          • anna kakazu preble

            First: a blog about “someone complaining about stuff” is still not evidence that these assaults are being committed by transgender folks.
            Second: these assaults are already being documented as happening to transgender people (source: http://www.avp.org/documents via rape response services http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944)

          • None

            It is a blog written by a trans woman.

            But go ahead, be a transphobic jerk and erase her lived experiences.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Nice try. Do you know what evidence means? If you want to strengthen your position I suggest you do some actual research instead of cherry picking certain images and articles that you think PROVE that transgender people are more often assailants than survivors of violence. Bait and switch of some website that is meant to provide an outlet for opinion isn’t impressive to me at all. thanks.

          • anna kakazu preble

            what I *love* and *adore* is how some of the people on this page think they can accuse me of being phobic on any level when they’re trying to argue against inclusion. so sad at the same time that it’s so hilllllllarious.

          • anna kakazu preble
          • dennis johnston

            So what if the same risks apply to cisgendered people. Whose rights do we take into consideration here, as I haven’t seen any studies that show making gender neutral bathrooms would put a dent in these events?

          • dennis johnston

            So what if the same risks apply to cisgendered people. Whose rights do we take into consideration here, as I haven’t seen any studies that show making gender neutral bathrooms would put a dent in these events?

          • JTMB Videos

            Anna, no one says they are TG

          • JTMB Videos

            Anna, no one says they are TG

          • anna kakazu preble

            sorry, your comment here is very unclear. Please clarify. There was even a response on this board by a self-identified trans female….

          • anna kakazu preble

            sorry, your comment here is very unclear. Please clarify. There was even a response on this board by a self-identified trans female….

          • JTMB Videos

            it is NOT the TG that concerns people, it is those posing as TG, abusing access

          • anna kakazu preble

            yes, I’ve noticed that, and I’m not impressed. How is that helping the problem to scapegoat transgender people? It’s like racial profiling or banning gay people from adopting kids. How does that help protect women like me from sexual assault? It doesn’t. So stop it already. I think most people are just upset that they can’t just look for “manhands” or an adam’s apple anymore, and hearing about a transgender female get beat to death by a MAN in a club because he “was fooled” is probably secretly satisfying to a lot of people on this board.

            It threatens americans’ sense of worldliness – it’s like when an “anchor baby” doesn’t have a discernible accent to mark them as “other”. People get upset because they feel “fooled”. That crap ain’t on nobody but a presumptuous person who can’t walk a mile in other people’s shoes.

          • anna kakazu preble

            yes, I’ve noticed that, and I’m not impressed. How is that helping the problem to scapegoat transgender people? It’s like racial profiling or banning gay people from adopting kids. How does that help protect women like me from sexual assault? It doesn’t. So stop it already. I think most people are just upset that they can’t just look for “manhands” or an adam’s apple anymore, and hearing about a transgender female get beat to death by a MAN in a club because he “was fooled” is probably secretly satisfying to a lot of people on this board.

            It threatens americans’ sense of worldliness – it’s like when an “anchor baby” doesn’t have a discernible accent to mark them as “other”. People get upset because they feel “fooled”. That crap ain’t on nobody but a presumptuous person who can’t walk a mile in other people’s shoes.

          • JTMB Videos

            it is NOT the TG that concerns people, it is those posing as TG, abusing access

          • dennis johnston

            We could always go the route of 2a gun advocates: If a man feels so inclined to rape a woman, he will find a way

          • JTMB Videos

            there different levels of assault, many are done because it seemed convenient and easy, it is not about rape.

          • JTMB Videos

            there different levels of assault, many are done because it seemed convenient and easy, it is not about rape.

          • dennis johnston

            We could always go the route of 2a gun advocates: If a man feels so inclined to rape a woman, he will find a way

          • dennis johnston

            I disagree with arguments from potentiality, as they re usually abstract and capable of being an infinite regress.

          • None

            Yeah. You should just leave your windows and doors open , why bother locking them, since criminals will always find a way.
            Risk reduction is for dummies!!

          • None

            Yeah. You should just leave your windows and doors open , why bother locking them, since criminals will always find a way.
            Risk reduction is for dummies!!

          • dennis johnston

            I disagree with arguments from potentiality, as they re usually abstract and capable of being an infinite regress.

          • anna kakazu preble

            I was tabling recently on the topic of earthquake prep and sanitation (e.g., bucket toilets) and the topic came up of how prudish people are about bathrooms in this country, of all the western countries. The English and Americans share the same view on the amount of control that US laws exact on bathrooms. Usually, my group frames this in terms of single user bathrooms, which, of course, nobody cares who uses THOSE bathrooms.

            To clarify, my concern is not for “special” rights; I only seek to advocate that all people enjoy safe and reasonable access to toilet facilities. Some populations in this country become very visible by certain social markers, and some markers are more visible than others

            A transgender person who uses a restroom marked for the biological sex that they correspond with become targeted very easily simply by the clothing they wear or the way they express their gender. There are several sites that address statistics of sexual assault on transwomen, and the disproportionate way that rape culture and mysogyny affect members of the queer and transgender community (I’ve added a couple of my sources at the end of this comment).

            If they insist on going into the bathroom that DOES correspond with their gender identity (eg., a transwoman goes into the females only restroom), they risk arrest or other forms of harassment. Estimates are as high as 50% of transgender people being attacked in their lives – I seek to not have bathrooms be an opportunity for such a high rate of violence.

            The advocacy group of which I’m a member advocates equitable restroom access for all bodies. This article is written to address “gang style” bathrooms, which is a problematic argument, as far as we’re concerned. I’ve included a publication by the Dept of Justice regarding prison populations and the violence faced/survived by transgender prisoners there.

            Finally, my own personal identity as a cis female of color means that I’m acutely aware of how other groups were controlled in the same way in the past: women in Victorian England, black people during the Jim Crow period, etc. Making restrooms available to all people is a public health issue, and that’s how we seek to address it for all human beings. We all pee, and we all poo. It’s not as impossible to find an agreeable solution to this as one would think.

            And no, this isn’t an “endless” push – but yeah, the pie is being resliced, and to those who enjoyed benefits of oppressive culture in the past, it seems like their own rights are being compromised. I am not convinced that is true at all, because of my own ethnic origins and cultural affiliations.

            Sources that informed this comment:
            http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944
            https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/799366/download
            http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/doj-trans-inmate-guidelines

          • anna kakazu preble

            Also, while the rights of all females are in direct tension with the rights of (violent or patriarchal) men, I am not convinced how protecting the rights of transgender people is in direct conflict with those of women.

          • Lisa

            My only fear in using the same bathroom as a M to F trans person is that she’ll look better in women’s clothes than I do 🙂

            But one time, waiting in the Staten Island side of the ferry terminal, I heard a woman screaming from the woman’s room. I saw a man run out, who tried to escape and was held for the police, then the woman screaming

            As it is, the restrooms are kind of gross and I avoid them as much as I can. But why should women have to be vigilant about being assaulted in public restrooms. We already have to keep our guard up so many places. Why can’t we just pee in peace?

          • None

            ..

          • None

            ..

          • Lisa

            My only fear in using the same bathroom as a M to F trans person is that she’ll look better in women’s clothes than I do 🙂

            But one time, waiting in the Staten Island side of the ferry terminal, I heard a woman screaming from the woman’s room. I saw a man run out, who tried to escape and was held for the police, then the woman screaming

            As it is, the restrooms are kind of gross and I avoid them as much as I can. But why should women have to be vigilant about being assaulted in public restrooms. We already have to keep our guard up so many places. Why can’t we just pee in peace?

          • anna kakazu preble

            Lee, why do you think I’m uncomfortable? I never said any such thing. What I object to is that the sexual assault rates on transgender men and women is estimated to be about 50%. That doesn’t make me uncomfortable, that makes me feel disgusted.

          • JTMB Videos

            Stats?

          • JTMB Videos

            Stats?

        • J-dawg

          There’s no biological reason to segregate restrooms by gender. It’s a holdover from Victorian days when society felt a need to “protect” women in public areas as more ventured outside the home and participated in daily life. The present-day conditioned response to feel “uncomfortable” in a shared space is not an immutable human trait, and is easily unlearned with exposure.

    • Isaac Argesmith

      Nice of you to speak FOR EVERY WOMEN THAT EXISTS.

  • Voice_of_Reason

    The fact that students in california are even remotely interested in this topic is proof that America has “jumped the shark”.

    Only entitled, worthless people with too much time and money on their hands spend money on nonsense such as this.

    What a whiney, entitled, useless bunch of poofs we are raising in colleges these days.

    • happens

      Aren’t you lucky that you’ve never had to think about problems like this.

      Your privilege is showing!

      • Voice_of_Reason

        no one HAS to think about non-problems like this.

        xx chromosomes go to one bathroom. xy chromosomes go to another. confused misfits maybe should get a seperate bathroom. it works for 99.9999% of people.

        • happens

          I’m sure you think that’s how sex works, but it isn’t. My family member has only one X chromosome, which bathroom does this family member use? What about people with XXO? XXY? Do you know what chromosomes you have? I don’t know what chromosomes I have. Up to 1/500 people are intersex, you probably know an intersex person, but just don’t know it.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            Do you run your business or school like your family home? Not for long, you don’t.

            Do you have strangers of opposite sex showering and defecating in your home?

            As for “up to 1/500” people, they can have a separate bathroom. The smart-alexk in me say they can have 1/500th of a bathroom for their non-existent problem.

          • Marissa Anne

            1) Do you run a business? I do. And in many ways, I run them similarly: a place where people are safe, supported, and encouraged to excel.

            2) Yes. It’s called a bathroom. i don’t have two marked, “Mens” and “Womens”. Just two, with no markings. Nobody’s been raped in them yet, btw.

            3) It’s not our non-existent problem. It’s your non-existent problem. Because you’re (quite obviously) a cisgender male who hasn’t had to be concerned about this problem. And privileged beyond the norm, since you don’t seem to give a rat’s a$$ about anyone but yourself.

            Now, I say this knowing you’re an “internet troll” looking for attention. So here. Some attention for you.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            you have two, individual bathrooms? might work.

            Not so much when you have multiple urinals and toilets and have to accomodate large numbers of people.

            seems as if perhaps you are a little defensive.

        • happens

          I’m sure you think that’s how sex works, but it isn’t. My family member has only one X chromosome, which bathroom does this family member use? What about people with XXO? XXY? Do you know what chromosomes you have? I don’t know what chromosomes I have. Up to 1/500 people are intersex, you probably know an intersex person, but just don’t know it.

    • Marissa Anne

      Entitled: the guy who doesn’t understand the privileges he’s been handed and STILL gripes about how tough he has it.

      • Voice_of_Reason

        are you talking about yourself? someone who worries about first-world “problems” like accomodating the fringe?

        the only privilege I’ve been handed is that I won the IQ lottery.

  • Lya

    I see both sides of the argument, but my personal experiences with gender neutral bathrooms in my dorm have been nothing but positive. Since showers are in their own individual stalls with private changing areas, and toilets are obviously in stalls, the only shared space is the sink area. I’ve never felt uncomfortable (and in case this is relevant, I identify as a cis straight female). Maybe its just the community I live in, but everyone is really mature about it, making the gender neutral bathrooms completely comfortable and convinient.

    • Voice_of_Reason

      so, no urinals it appears.

      as a straight male, I would have to file a lawsuit because the lack of urinals would constitute a “micro agression” against me.

      • anna kakazu preble

        if it means anything you can leave the toilet seat up. Does that sound less aggressive?

        • Voice_of_Reason

          wait, is a micro-aggression actually aggressive? if so, why does it say “micro” in front of it?

          • anna kakazu preble

            Yes. it’s actually a passive form of aggression – exclusion in our society and saying that 99.9999% of the people express their gender in binary forms is one such example. It’s “micro” because it’s much more subtle than, say, a punch in the face. I may be cis female but I actually take these discussions very seriously because of the ways I’ve seen policy used against my community – and others. but anyhoo. I didn’t want you to feel left out, is all….

          • Voice_of_Reason

            i don’t care how you “express” your gender. biologically you are either male or female, except for very rare generic defects with sex chromosomes.

          • Mitchell

            Legally if a person has transisitioned fully they either will have all female or male organs and are for all reason and purpose then presenting as male or female and should be allowed to not be embarrassed or forced to be seen any other way.

          • Voice_of_Reason

            well, i guess I can undestand that about a person who has “legally” transitioned. what about all of the people who have not transitioned but “identify” as another gender.

          • LostInUnderland

            Why does it matter to you how someone else chooses to express their gender?

          • Voice_of_Reason

            I don’t care what they do in their private lives or homes.

          • None

            Yeah I mean it’s none of our business. If a man wants to take his 7incher out in the woman’s change room no one should question him.

            Any women who feel uncomfortable are bigots!

          • JTMB Videos

            you cannot express gender just as you cannot express skin color, you are either a woman, man, Asian, Black, or you are not

          • JTMB Videos

            you cannot express gender just as you cannot express skin color, you are either a woman, man, Asian, Black, or you are not

          • JTMB Videos

            except that are still the man or women as they were born, no amount of body modifications can change that, many TG2W regret it and find that it does not FIX what they had

          • JTMB Videos

            except that are still the man or women as they were born, no amount of body modifications can change that, many TG2W regret it and find that it does not FIX what they had

          • None

            That’s because it is a mental disorder.

            http://www.sexchangeregret.com

            But trans stuff is popular these days because SJW idiots want to be special snowflakes.

          • None

            That’s because it is a mental disorder.

            http://www.sexchangeregret.com

            But trans stuff is popular these days because SJW idiots want to be special snowflakes.

          • JTMB Videos

            well that sums it up for Anna, giving micro-aggression meme support

          • JTMB Videos

            well that sums it up for Anna, giving micro-aggression meme support

          • Voice_of_Reason

            i don’t care how you “express” your gender. biologically you are either male or female, except for very rare generic defects with sex chromosomes.

          • anna kakazu preble

            Yes. it’s actually a passive form of aggression – exclusion in our society and saying that 99.9999% of the people express their gender in binary forms is one such example. It’s “micro” because it’s much more subtle than, say, a punch in the face. I may be cis female but I actually take these discussions very seriously because of the ways I’ve seen policy used against my community – and others. but anyhoo. I didn’t want you to feel left out, is all….